Why not just call Manga ''comics'' and anime ''Cartoons''?

[Pól Rua]

Japanese animation isn't any more mature than Western animation, it's just that there's more of it. Basically, if 5% of Western Animation is 'good' and 5% of Japanese Animation is 'good', then sure, there's more Japanese stuff there, just because there's more of a base sample.
But as with anything, Sturgeon's Law applies. 90% of everything is bull[pudding].
And just as Western Animation is choked with Saturday Morning Toy Ads, Japanese Animation is choked with interchangeable (and interminable) 'struggle' series and harem comedies. Most of which are just as interested in selling product.

And there's nothing that says an animated series aimed at 7 year olds can't be good.

[wjowski]

It's a stupid distinction. Particularly when it's applied to *any kind of comic or animation from Asia*.

[FanboyStranger]

Here's another crazy thing, though. At one point, I walked into a comic book store, and indicated to the store owner that I wanted to order some Marvel comics, referring to them by the Dutch word stripboeken (which is the neutral translation of 'comic books'). And he insisted that I call them by the English word comics, as he apparently felt they were distinct from European comics like Tintin and Suske & Wiske. I was kind of confused, but decided to go along with it.

While there is almost certainly some nationalistic chauvinism involved, I don't think he's wrong to make that distinction from a professional standpoint. As some posts earlier in the thread have shown, when most readers say 'comics', they mostly are referring to 20-26 page montly periodicals released in the N American market. There is a discernable difference in format in the European market for first run material. You don't have Tintin 1 produced one month, then Tintin 2 continuing the same story the next month.

While most of this thread has dealt with the differing reactions of fans towards manga, N American, and European comics, I think the subject is more diffuse than some people would like to accept. In ignoring the terms of production, you're ignoring what makes those various comics distinct from one another. They are all comics, but they are not all created equal. Yes, you have goofy chauvinistic readers unwilling to look beyond their narrow viewpoint in terms of what they consume (which, quite frankly, I find sad, even if I'm not as conversant with manga as I'd like to be), but to deny how those comics are made and presented is to do a great disservice to the medium as a whole.

In other words, if Random Fan A says "Manga rools, other comics drool", I don't take it very seriously because that's an uninformed viewpoint. On the other hand, if Paul Pope, who has worked in both industries, says that there's a discernable difference between manga and comics, I need to examine what he's saying. I understand that's a bit TCJ for our purposes at CBR, but if I want to be intellectually honest about the discussion, I can't help but see the disinction.

And yes, my starting point is still "they're all comics."

I have no real opinion on anime vs. N American animation. My gut tells me that there's been so much pollination of Japanese style animation in N American programs that it's probably very difficult to discern at this point, but the only cartoon I watch regularly is Archer, so I don't feel I can make a statement to that effect in good faith.

[Billy Batson]

The North American animation industry is such a ghetto.

the only cartoon I watch regularly is Archer

You should try Venture Bros if you haven't.

[FanboyStranger]

Japanese animation isn't any more mature than Western animation, it's just that there's more of it. Basically, if 5% of Western Animation is 'good' and 5% of Japanese Animation is 'good', then sure, there's more Japanese stuff there, just because there's more of a base sample.
But as with anything, Sturgeon's Law applies. 90% of everything is bull[pudding].
And just as Western Animation is choked with Saturday Morning Toy Ads, Japanese Animation is choked with interchangeable (and interminable) 'struggle' series and harem comedies. Most of which are just as interested in selling product.

And there's nothing that says an animated series aimed at 7 year olds can't be good.

I'd also submit that people in Anglophonic culture probably only get the best/most popular of what Japanese manga/anime has to offer. We get the The Wire of manga/anime, but we don't get the Dads.

And I think one of the faults with the Big Two as far as comics these days is that they make no effort towards making comics that appeal to both a smart seven year old and an adult who has read comics throughout their life.

[FanboyStranger]

The North American animation industry is such a ghetto.

You should try Venture Bros if you haven't.

I actually do watch and love Venture Bros. It's just so erratic in its scheduling. Which, in itself, makes it something of an outlier in terms of the N American television medium.

One of my favorite comics artists, Stephen DeStefano (of 'Mazing Man fame), works on the show.

(Quite a few big comics guys work in animation. Paul Rivoche, one of my absolute heroes, for example.)

[Pól Rua]

The North American animation industry is such a ghetto.

I'm sure there are many really excellent animators who disagree with you.
Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, James Tucker, Genndy Tartakovsky, Stephen Silver, Michael Dante DiMartino and Brian Konietzo, Seth McFarlane, Pendleton Ward, Craig McCracken, J.G. Quintel, Paul Rivoche, Darwyn Cooke, Adam Reed, pretty much everyone who's working for Pixar/Disney, Dreamworks Animation, Ralph Bakshi's still out there... the rise of online animated shorts like 'How it Should Have Ended'...

Pretty star-studded 'ghetto'.

[Billy Batson]

I'm sure there are many really excellent animators who disagree with you.
Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, James Tucker, Genndy Tartakovsky, Stephen Silver, Michael Dante DiMartino and Brian Konietzo, Seth McFarlane, Pendleton Ward, Craig McCracken, J.G. Quintel, Paul Rivoche, Darwyn Cooke, Adam Reed, pretty much everyone who's working for Pixar/Disney, Dreamworks Animation, Ralph Bakshi's still out there... the rise of online animated shorts like 'How it Should Have Ended'...

Pretty star-studded 'ghetto'.

Well, I wouldn't call Set McFarlane excellent, bleh. I wasn't really talking about the quality of North American animation, there's plenty of good stuff and I'm familiar with most of your examples. It's just in terms of subject matter/viewership North American animation still mostly focuses on children shows/movies and adult comedy shows.

[PwrdOn]

It's a bit silly to insist on using specific terms to refer to Japanese comics and cartoons, especially since the style and tone of these works was heavily influenced by Western media that was exported to Japan in the post-war period. Of course there are some distinctive elements of Japanese media, but it's a bit silly to consider it to be a native Asian development entirely separate from what's being produced in the West.

In any event, many lightly regarded Western productions from the 80s like the GI Joe, Transformers, and Jem cartoons were actually animated in Japan, only Filmation resisted the outsourcing trend and as a result had to cut corners almost everywhere resulting in astoundingly cheap looking results. These days, most of the animation work for both American and Japanese productions is outsourced to Korea, which probably explains the similar looking product more than anything else.

[Paradox]

Scott McCloud did a pretty good job explaining the differences in the Japanese approach to comics/manga in Understanding Comics that might work in here I think, but I've simply never been into the Japanese stuff enough to know how accurate it really is.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

You presume too much.

I've been watching anime since it was widely known as Japanimation. Personal favorites of mine include Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Hellsing (although I seem to be one of the few that prefer the original series), Lupin III, Spirited Away, Excel Saga, The Cat Returns, and Voltron (preferring the english version to the Japanese source material.)

Also Evangeleon sucks. I just want to get that out there. It's a horrible series. I never cared for Deathnote either. Oddly enough, I do enjoy Highschool of the Dead, even though the series by all rights should be considered garbage.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to say that anime as a whole is of higher quality simply because some of the titles titles that are good.

I've seen Fencer of Minerva and Ikkitousen. You're not going to convince me that anime should be put on some high pedestal of ultimate quality.

That was never my intention. I'm no raving geeky otaku trying to spread the holy gospel of anime. You have your opinions and I have mine. I simply find anime more enjoyable that American animation. And for the record, I enjoyed shows like Ikki Tousen, HOTD, and my all-time favorite guilty pleasure was the pantyflashing fest, Agent Aika. I also apologize for assuming that you haven't watched more anime than you have. One should never assume which is foolish, which I had been.

[mathew101281]

I think the reason why manga has a different connotation in many people's eyes has less to do with quality and more to do with diversity of content. Manga isn't dominated by on genre like American comics are and anime isn't dominated by one demographic like cartoons are in the states. That means, that even though overall quality is probably the same, anime/manga targets more then one demographic and thus brings in audiences that its counterparts here can't or won't. This is why some people probably think manga are better then American comics. It's not so much a quality thing as it is an ease of being able to find something that appeals to you thing. Heck, the fact that manga targets women in a major way doubles its audience right there.

[Hazard]

It's an easy way to differentiate.

Also plays into the expectations you have for different words. Saying I love movies is not the same thing is saying I love novels which is not the same as saying I love French movies and I love old, Black and White movies.

Your opinion is WRONG. The most popular animes have basically been Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Pokemon. Nothing about them is anymore sophisticated than your average episode of G.I. Joe, Ninja Turtles, or (tremble) My Little Pony.

Dude, all caps wrong is just rude.

Also, your opinion on popularity works only in regard of the American market, if that.

[Donald M.]

Because for fans of manga and anime, the distinction is important. It's not just about liking cartoons and comics, it's about specifically liking Japanese cartoons and comics.

[JaggedFel]

That was never my intention. I'm no raving geeky otaku trying to spread the holy gospel of anime. You have your opinions and I have mine. I simply find anime more enjoyable that American animation. And for the record, I enjoyed shows like Ikki Tousen, HOTD, and my all-time favorite guilty pleasure was the pantyflashing fest, Agent Aika. I also apologize for assuming that you haven't watched more anime than you have. One should never assume which is foolish, which I had been.

Yeah Anime has a wider range of genres. Most American Animation these days is pure comedy for the most part which is nice but I dont know personally sometimes I like a good action show or mystery drama.