Anyone thinks Nolan's Batman movies is Frank Miller's vision on film?

[Mr. Mastermind]

TDKR-If the exact same movie had come out 10 years earlier the problems wouldn't have mattered. They are very similar to problems the original Star Wars and Indiana Jones films had. The difference is those films set the standards for their genres while TDKR came out after the films that set the standard for the superhero genre, so the flaws are not as forgivable.

That is also why I think so many people are willing to overlook or don't see the flaws in the Donner Superman movies or the Burton Batman movies. They set the original bar for the genre, even if I think it was setting the bar fairly low.

Yeah, TDKR is still better than any of the Spider-Man or Superman movies (and before anyone asks, Spider-Man 2 is dragged down by Dunst and Maguire).

I'd also say its better than most of the MCu movies, most of which have less problems structurally, but don't have nearly enough ambition or effort put into them (almost all of them feel like factory produced films, even the good ones).

It's just not as good as the first two Nolan movies, or X-Men First Class.

[t hedge coke]

I'd also say its better than most of the MCu movies

I wouldn't.

It's just not as good as the first two Nolan movies, or X-Men First Class.

And eight thousand plus movies that have nothing to do with properties owned by DC or Marvel.

Rises isn't a terrible movie, but for me, it's nowhere in near the top twenty-five, say, comics-based movies, or the top twenty-five movies with superheroes in them, and not even close to being in the top 100, or even 500 movies out of all movies.

But, then, I'm not a big Nolan fan in general.

[Mr. Mastermind]

I wouldn't.

Most of the MCU movies feel like they were made by a factory, not actual filmmakers.

There are exceptions like Iron Man 3 and The Winter Soldier, but Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 were just plain bad. Most of them reside in the "well that was enjoyably mediocre" range.

And eight thousand plus movies that have nothing to do with properties owned by DC or Marvel.

Notice how I focus on superhero movies and not movies in general.

If we're talking about movies in general the list could go on forever. I doubt any superhero movie would make the top 100 best movies ever.

[sunofdarkchild]

I wouldn't.



And eight thousand plus movies that have nothing to do with properties owned by DC or Marvel.

Rises isn't a terrible movie, but for me, it's nowhere in near the top twenty-five, say, comics-based movies, or the top twenty-five movies with superheroes in them, and not even close to being in the top 100, or even 500 movies out of all movies.

But, then, I'm not a big Nolan fan in general.

25? Are you counting the direct to DVD movies, because otherwise there are not that many good superhero movies.

2-4 Spider-Man movies, depending on how you view the current series.
1-5 X-Men movies depending on how you view the first and the series since Wolverine Origins.
2-3 Superman movies depending on how you view Man of Steel
3-7 Batman movies, again depending on how you view pretty much every version
5 good Marvel movies so far. (I do not consider the Thor movies to be good by any stretch of the imagination.)
The Incredibles.

At most there are barely 25 including TDKR. If you're a tougher critic there's about 15.

[t hedge coke]

Notice how I focus on superhero movies and not movies in general.

If we're talking about movies in general the list could go on forever. I doubt any superhero movie would make the top 100 best movies ever.

Fair enough, but even in terms of superhero movies, I don't think Rises falls within my top 25. Even limiting it to Batman movies, it's probably the worst live action Batman movie for my tastes.

[sunofdarkchild]

That is the first time I've seen someone say that Batman and Robin is better than TDKR.

[Auguste Dupin]

Begins-By superhero movie standards a masterpiece, but merely good by overall cinema standards.

TDK-Did for superhero movies what Lord of the Rings did for fantasy movies. I'd say it's a masterpiece.

TDKR-If the exact same movie had come out 10 years earlier the problems wouldn't have mattered. They are very similar to problems the original Star Wars and Indiana Jones films had. The difference is those films set the standards for their genres while TDKR came out after the films that set the standard for the superhero genre, so the flaws are not as forgivable.

That is also why I think so many people are willing to overlook or don't see the flaws in the Donner Superman movies or the Burton Batman movies. They set the original bar for the genre, even if I think it was setting the bar fairly low.

No, Indiana Jones is a simple yet incredibly well paced movie with a strong characterisation based on the characters' actions, and not on them making monologues while a dramatic music was playing in the background to make sure you get what they're talking about is veryyyyy important. TDKR is an ambitious flick that falls short on the expectations the movie itself is raising by his attempts at telling an epic "finale", often at the expense of internal logic.
If anything, these movies are the complete opposite of one another.
TDKR, for the better and the worse, is very much a modern blockbuster, while Indiana Jones is old school in its approach.

[t hedge coke]

25? Are you counting the direct to DVD movies, because otherwise there are not that many good superhero movies.

2-4 Spider-Man movies, depending on how you view the current series.
1-5 X-Men movies depending on how you view the first and the series since Wolverine Origins.
2-3 Superman movies depending on how you view Man of Steel
3-7 Batman movies, again depending on how you view pretty much every version
5 good Marvel movies so far. (I do not consider the Thor movies to be good by any stretch of the imagination.)
The Incredibles.

At most there are barely 25 including TDKR. If you're a tougher critic there's about 15.

As is easily demonstrated by your statement that you don't "consider the Thor movies to be good by any stretch," these things come down to personal taste. A lot of people love Thor.

I don't love Thor, but I think it's better than Rises. As are The Phantom, every other live action Batman movie, Zebra-Man I & II, Winter Soldier, the 90s Captain America movie, Superman II, Supergirl, X-Men First Class, The Crow, Black Mask, Mystery Men, The Dead One/El Muerto, K-20, Cutey Honey, Darkman, Sky High, G-Men From Hell, Iron Man, Avengers, Silver Hawk...

Rises is about Green Hornet level, for me. Origins: Wolverine level. I'm not sorry I saw it, but I saw it and now I'm done with it. Someone could talk me into watching it with them, but I'll never go out of my way to procure a copy or see it by myself again. Heck, I'll probably see the Wolverine one again, just for Liev Schreiber, before I check out Rises another time.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Forget Batman and Robin (which has a certain so bad its good charm to it), Origins: Wolverine might just be the worst superhero movie ever made. Other than the solid casting, everything that could go wrong, went wrong. Wolverine's arc is incredibly cliched and removes the appeal of the character, the plot is a laughable series of cliches, the cameos are stupid instead of cute (who wants to see an 8 year old Emma Frost), the special effects are terrible, the characters are broad and one note and the film makes the X-Men universe seem so extremely small with its "set-up". It's the biggest and best example of prequelitis ever put on screen, and it's a testament to how bad it truly is that everyone involved with the X-Men is actively trying to distance themselves from it.

Rises is head and shoulders above it.

[sunofdarkchild]

No, Indiana Jones is a simple yet incredibly well paced movie with a strong characterisation based on the characters' actions, and not on them making monologues while a dramatic music was playing in the background to make sure you get what they're talking about is veryyyyy important. TDKR is an ambitious flick that falls short on the expectations the movie itself is raising by his attempts at telling an epic "finale", often at the expense of internal logic.
If anything, these movies are the complete opposite of one another.
TDKR, for the better and the worse, is very much a modern blockbuster, while Indiana Jones is old school in its approach.

Indiana Jones has a number of over-dramatic monologues and moments of stupidity and lack of internal logic. Even Raiders. But other than Crystal Skull people don't care about those flaws (if you consider the monologues to be flaws). And arguably they shouldn't care. Movies with different styles can still have similar flaws.

[sunofdarkchild]

As is easily demonstrated by your statement that you don't "consider the Thor movies to be good by any stretch," these things come down to personal taste. A lot of people love Thor.

I don't love Thor, but I think it's better than Rises. As are The Phantom, every other live action Batman movie, Zebra-Man I & II, Winter Soldier, the 90s Captain America movie, Superman II, Supergirl, X-Men First Class, The Crow, Black Mask, Mystery Men, The Dead One/El Muerto, K-20, Cutey Honey, Darkman, Sky High, G-Men From Hell, Iron Man, Avengers, Silver Hawk...

Rises is about Green Hornet level, for me. Origins: Wolverine level. I'm not sorry I saw it, but I saw it and now I'm done with it. Someone could talk me into watching it with them, but I'll never go out of my way to procure a copy or see it by myself again. Heck, I'll probably see the Wolverine one again, just for Liev Schreiber, before I check out Rises another time.

Supergirl? Seriously?

[t hedge coke]

I may be being unfair comparing it to the Wolverine flick. To be honest, I've blanked a good deal of both out, and have seen neither repeatedly (in fact, I think one and a half times for each, is about it). But neither is as bad as Superman IV, or Superman III (which my love of Richard Pryor and my total crush on Annette O'Toole could not save). I seem to remember liking some of the action bits in Wolverine, none of which really came together for me in Rises except the whole airplane hostage thing, which was both absurd and very cool, but certainly Rises' characterizations of Catwoman and Bane were closer to the comics than Silver Fox, Deadpool, or John Wraith were.

[Auguste Dupin]

Indiana Jones has a number of over-dramatic monologues and moments of stupidity and lack of internal logic. Even Raiders. But other than Crystal Skull people don't care about those flaws (if you consider the monologues to be flaws). And arguably they shouldn't care. Movies with different styles can still have similar flaws.

Huh....When?

[t hedge coke]

Supergirl? Seriously?

I love Supergirl. It's funny, it's scary, the action bits are good, the acting is superb, the scope of things is enormous (aliens! magic! alternate dimensions! reality warping! even Superman's offscreen mission is bigger than anything he does in his own movies' actual plots), the cinematography is incredibly pretty, and the cast are all charming in their roles. Supergirl, herself, is honest, and good, and heroic, facing incredible odds. Plus, it's the first time Matt Frewer shows up as a rapist in a superhero movie, starting a trend (that extends to only one other movie).

[sunofdarkchild]

Huh....When?

Many of the monologues about how awesome the main artifact of the movie is. 'This is history.' 'It's a conduit to God.' ect. at all I don't mind them any more than I mind the Nolan monologues, but they are there.

I love Supergirl. It's funny, it's scary, the action bits are good, the acting is superb, the scope of things is enormous (aliens! magic! alternate dimensions! reality warping! even Superman's offscreen mission is bigger than anything he does in his own movies' actual plots), the cinematography is incredibly pretty, and the cast are all charming in their roles. Supergirl, herself, is honest, and good, and heroic, facing incredible odds. Plus, it's the first time Matt Frewer shows up as a rapist in a superhero movie, starting a trend (that extends to only one other movie).

Good action and acting? Good anything? This is the same movie with the whole 'I can't!' 'You can!' bit, is it not?

You can like it, but objectively speaking the movie is a trainwreck on every level.