View Poll Results: Is The Overemphasis On The Character's Warrior Facets Detrimental

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  1. #1
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    Default Is There Too Much Focus On The Warrior Aspects?

    I've been wondering if maybe writers get too caught up in Diana's warrior aspects and focus too much on this, while ignoring other facets of her character. The Embassy is gone, she's now the Goddess of War and the Amazons have none of the reverence for intellectual, spiritual and artistic pursuits. I've heard some blame this on Perez for taking away the futuristic tech, but he still showed them as philosophers, artists, musicians etc. Plus Jiminez returned their tech in his run.

  2. #2
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    Yes, too much focus on it and that WW is violent and kill enemies often

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    I agree. While I like that Diana is a good fighter, I also want to see writers spend more time on her other facets. Just about every New 52 interpretation of Diana has been violent and bloody in one way or another.
    Currently(or soon to be) Reading: Alan Scott: Green Lantern, Batman/Superman: World's Finest, Fire & Ice: Welcome to Smallville, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Jay Garrick: The Flash, Justice Society of America, Power Girl, Superman, Shazam, Titans, Wesley Dodds: Sandman, Wonder Woman, & World's Finest: Teen Titans.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Abso-freaking-lutely.

    I like the idea that Wonder Woman is a fierce and skilled warrior. So skilled and so fierce that villains and criminals absolutely dread having to go up against her.

    That said? The character was created with compassion and kindness being first and foremost in her defining traits. Having her do almost nothing but fight and looking for more fights is not being true to the character at all.

    People love to compare Diana to Xena. If Diana were still being written the way she's supposed to be, no one would ever make that distinction, because Diana is much more merciful and peace-loving than Xena ever was.

    I love watching Diana kick ass. I love seeing villains freak out at the mere prospect of having to fight her. But I also want to see a Wonder Woman who offers her enemies a chance to surrender before she ever strikes a blow. I want to see her do everything in her power to prevent a fight in the first place. I want to see her show her amazing fighting skills only once it is clear that she has no other choice.

    There, however, is another issue. An argument could be made that Diana WOULD only fight if she had no other choice, but so often she finds herself in situations where there is no time for diplomacy or looking for a better way. The villains Diana now fights are so savage, so brutal, and so bloodthirsty that Diana would have to be INSANE to try talking them down first. When a villain is as bloodthirsty as the First Born? The only sane response is to charge him and try to put him down before he slaughters anyone else.

    In general, we need less ultra-violence in comics all around. Diana's peaceful side cannot flourish in a universe where every enemy she faces is pretty much actively pursuing genocide/mass murder. Diana can't try to redeem enemies that are as depraved as the ones she tends to face.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yeah, there is. The character benefits from more of her warrior side shown, but you don't want it absolutely dominating or else you just veer off into a whole other extreme. A good example of doing that right is New 52 Superman. The extreme was the ultra boyscout. They wanted to move away from that and go back more to the character's roots, and they did that by giving him a bit of an edge, but its not like he's killing people left and right. Thus, they made an alteration from one extreme without going into another. That's all you have to watch out for with Diana. Yes she's highly skilled and can and does kick tons of ass when need be, just make sure you show how awesome she is when she's not in a fight as well.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-27-2015 at 06:52 PM.

  6. #6
    Stop a war with love. Darius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Abso-freaking-lutely.

    I like the idea that Wonder Woman is a fierce and skilled warrior. So skilled and so fierce that villains and criminals absolutely dread having to go up against her.

    That said? The character was created with compassion and kindness being first and foremost in her defining traits. Having her do almost nothing but fight and looking for more fights is not being true to the character at all.

    People love to compare Diana to Xena. If Diana were still being written the way she's supposed to be, no one would ever make that distinction, because Diana is much more merciful and peace-loving than Xena ever was.

    I love watching Diana kick ass. I love seeing villains freak out at the mere prospect of having to fight her. But I also want to see a Wonder Woman who offers her enemies a chance to surrender before she ever strikes a blow. I want to see her do everything in her power to prevent a fight in the first place. I want to see her show her amazing fighting skills only once it is clear that she has no other choice.

    There, however, is another issue. An argument could be made that Diana WOULD only fight if she had no other choice, but so often she finds herself in situations where there is no time for diplomacy or looking for a better way. The villains Diana now fights are so savage, so brutal, and so bloodthirsty that Diana would have to be INSANE to try talking them down first. When a villain is as bloodthirsty as the First Born? The only sane response is to charge him and try to put him down before he slaughters anyone else.

    In general, we need less ultra-violence in comics all around. Diana's peaceful side cannot flourish in a universe where every enemy she faces is pretty much actively pursuing genocide/mass murder. Diana can't try to redeem enemies that are as depraved as the ones she tends to face.
    I think this is very well stated. But I also think a distinction needs to be made between being a warrior and being a merciless fighter. Diana has a code of ethics like any warrior culture ... She has honor and is pretty clear that her goal is to focus on stopping the rampaging bad guys quickly so they cannot do further harm. Tomasi stated this all too bluntly in his last issue ... So I don't know that them emphasizing this aspect is totally a negative.

  7. #7
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Non-issue.

  8. #8
    Amazing Member Empress96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I've been wondering if maybe writers get too caught up in Diana's warrior aspects and focus too much on this, while ignoring other facets of her character. The Embassy is gone, she's now the Goddess of War and the Amazons have none of the reverence for intellectual, spiritual and artistic pursuits. I've heard some blame this on Perez for taking away the futuristic tech, but he still showed them as philosophers, artists, musicians etc. Plus Jiminez returned their tech in his run.
    It doesn't matter that Perez showed them as philosophers. By changing them from a super advanced society to Bronze Age level, it justified to other writers both within Post-Crisis and New 52 continuity to not have them move beyond/advance pass that, effectively dumbing down the only notable female-led society within the DCU. You mention Jiminez, but forget that his run was littered with editorial problems. Guess what happens when Greg Rucka takes over? Bronze Age Amazons returns.

    Perez-era Amazons were smart, but Marston and Kanigher's Amazons were smarter. You don't see Kryptonians, Atlanteans, or even the Gorillas from Gorilla City being dumbed down like this. I swear the WW's mythos went through a devolution, unlike other franchises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empress96 View Post
    It doesn't matter that Perez showed them as philosophers by changing them from a super advanced society to Bronze Age level, it justified to other writers both within Post-Crisis and New 52 continuity to not have them move beyond that, effectively dumbing down the only notable female-led society within the DCU. You mention Jiminez, but forget that his run was littered with editorial problems. Guess what happens when Greg Rucka takes over? Bronze Age Amazon returns.

    Perez-era Amazons were smart, but Marston and Kanigher's Amazons were smarter. You don't see Kryptonians, Atlanteans, or even the Gorillas from Gorilla City being dumbed down like this. I swear WW's mythos went through a devolution, unlike other franchises.
    Didn't Rucka's Amazons have the Purple Ray which they used on the OMACs?

  10. #10
    Amazing Member Empress96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Didn't Rucka's Amazons have the Purple Ray which they used on the OMACs?
    If I remember correctly, he transformed it from a healing ray to a death ray?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empress96 View Post
    If I remember correctly, he transformed it from a healing ray to a death ray?
    Which is what set the stage for Amazons Attack right? I like that the Post-Crisis Amazons have a structured warrior society, but I have long said I miss Marsons Amazons ... Kanigher was a mess IMO but that had as much to do with the times as him being horrible

  12. #12
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    y'know, I really enjoyed Kanigher's stint on "Enemy Ace"-- it was maudlin and silly-- but it was also very daring and had plenty of heart. of course, that was something he had a LOT more creative control over.

    he's not a terrible comics writer, not by the standards of his era, at any rate.

    I still can't imagine him being a good fit for Wonder Woman, though! I'd pick him over Garth Ennis, though!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totoro Man View Post
    y'know, I really enjoyed Kanigher's stint on "Enemy Ace"-- it was maudlin and silly-- but it was also very daring and had plenty of heart. of course, that was something he had a LOT more creative control over.

    he's not a terrible comics writer, not by the standards of his era, at any rate.

    I still can't imagine him being a good fit for Wonder Woman, though! I'd pick him over Garth Ennis, though!
    He was very prolific in his day ... I read a stat somewhere that he wrote more SA comics than any other writer ... Who knows if that's true, but it would not surprise me ... I just hated how little attention to detail he seemed to have paid to what Marston had already created. He made WW's first retcons, which IMO cheapened the mythos by making the Amazons essentially normal women who fled their homeland because all of their men died in war. But he added some great concepts too ... Wondergirl was his creation, even if he later retconed that too ... Apparently he had lost track of the fact that his original Wondergirl was simply Diana at a younger age and started writing comics that featured WW and WG together ... Thus Donna Troy was born.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    ....But I also want to see a Wonder Woman who offers her enemies a chance to surrender before she ever strikes a blow.
    I agree with you, and I'd say a prime example is Diana's encounter with Siracca; she doesn't strike a blow, but only dodges--and then hugs. She even offers the First Born chances to surrender in 23 (just after entering god mode) and 35, though yes, predictably he doesn't take her up on the offers.

    On other occasions, though she may not be able to stop a fight from starting, she finds a non-violent way to end it and to solve a problem. Against Artemis in Siberia and Cassandra in the Ukraine, she concludes fights by going further than offering her opponent a chance to surrender; she achieves an objective by offering her own "surrender" or submission. Similarly, in issue 8 she stops the fight and gets Zola home by making a peaceful deal with Hades, putting herself at grave risk. That kind of non-violent problem-solving isn't very Xena-esque, I suspect (though I don't know very much about Xena.)

    While you're right that Wonder Woman's traditional M.O. of trying to convert the enemy wouldn't work if all of her enemies were too monstrous to convert, I like it when an enemy seems too monstrous but is converted anyway. Hera is the prime example of that; back around issue 2 or 3, some readers thought it was crazy to even speculate that Hera would be reformed, but that ended up happening. Most of us didn't even think of the possibility that Wonder Woman would try to reform Hades, but she did try (though it would have been nice if we saw more results after her bullet and mirror trick). She even prevails upon Hera to give Cassandra a second chance.

    So, while I agree that there's been too much emphasis on Diana's "warrior" ways outside the main Wonder Woman title, I think Azz appropriately portrayed her as the ultimate "warrior for peace"--a seeming paradox that has been central to Wonder Woman's characterization since Marston.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 01-28-2015 at 06:05 AM.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I agree with you, and I'd say a prime example is Diana's encounter with Siracca; she doesn't strike a blow, but only dodges--and then hugs. She even offers the First Born chances to surrender in 23 (just after entering god mode) and 35, though yes, predictably he doesn't take her up on the offers.
    Siracca? Sure.

    First Born? See my first post. Any attempt to talk down a monster like him isn't Diana being compassionate or peaceful. It's Diana being blind, stupid, and/or insane.

    On other occasions, though she may not be able to stop a fight from starting, she finds a non-violent way to end it and to solve a problem. Against Artemis in Siberia and Cassandra in the Ukraine, she concludes fights by going further than offering her opponent a chance to surrender; she achieves an objective by offering her own "surrender" or submission. Similarly, in issue 8 she stops the fight and gets Zola home by making a peaceful deal with Hades, putting herself at grave risk. That kind of non-violent problem-solving isn't very Xena-esque, I suspect (though I don't know very much about Xena.)
    Cassandra, she had no choice on. Cassandra had a hostage and would've killed someone Diana cared about if she didn't stop fighting. Soule did the same thing when Diana negotiated a truce between her and Zod when he and Faora had Superman hostage.

    Artemis is an okay example.

    Hades? She had no choice but to negotiate with him. He had her completely helpless and could've killed her with the greatest of ease. She couldn't have solved that problem with violence. She already tried. She got her ass kicked (again.)

    While you're right that Wonder Woman's traditional M.O. of trying to convert the enemy wouldn't work if all of her enemies were too monstrous to convert, I like it when an enemy seems too monstrous but is converted anyway. Hera is the prime example of that; back around issue 2 or 3, some readers thought it was crazy to even speculate that Hera would be reformed, but that ended up happening. Most of us didn't even think of the possibility that Wonder Woman would try to reform Hades, but she did try (though it would have been nice if we saw more results after her bullet and mirror trick). She even prevails upon Hera to give Cassandra a second chance.
    Hera was petty and cruel. Not nearly as "monstrous" as a genocidal cannibal god. Hera, at her worst, never tried to destroy the entire world just for spite. She only punishes people who have somehow wronged her. Don't want to get hurt by Hera? Don't piss her off. Don't want to get eaten by the First Born? Don't exist on the same plane of reality as him

    Her effort to reform Hades was a complete and utter failure, so I hardly count it any great achievement of hers.

    Cassandra was already broken beyond repair by that point. Letting Hera kill her (or killing her herself) would've been the act of mercy at that point.

    So, while I agree that there's been too much emphasis on Diana's "warrior" ways outside the main Wonder Woman title, I think Azz appropriately portrayed her as the ultimate "warrior for peace"--a seeming paradox that has been central to Wonder Woman's characterization since Marston.
    Azz portrayed Diana as a pragmatist who knows that sometimes a little diplomacy is necessary. Hardly a warrior for peace. There were a few moments, like Siracca and Artemis, where Diana simply chose a peaceful approach because it was the right thing to do. Most of the other moments you list were Diana either having no choice or being kind of stupid.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

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