Is There Too Much Focus On The Warrior Aspects?

[numberthirty]

Forget who's doing the talking, but it was one of the gods asking about "Cassandra the Mad."

Does not happen. No mention of her in issue thirty-five.

[Vanguard-01]

Does not happen. No mention of her in issue thirty-five.

Meh.

So then she's still a crystal. Great approach to psychiatric treatment Diana!

[Silvanus]

Note how Diana doesn't dispute Apollo's claim that she handed FB over to him? I somehow doubt she did that out of some sense of duty to her Olympian family. The First Born was Diana's ticket to an audience with Apollo, which was Step One in her "master plan" to restore Hera's powers.

The Olympians should have been best qualified and most appropriate to hold an Olympian prisoner (and they might have been, if Apollo's hubris hadn't gotten in the way.) She didn't need to turn the First Born over to Apollo to get an "audience"; she gets that by inheriting the mantle of War.

Either way, that's not exactly a good solution to the problem now, either, is it? Keeping her frozen in crstal isn't going to fix her broken brain either. Keeping her frozen in stasis is no better than just letting her run free, if you're trying to sell me on Diana's compassion.

Obviously she doesn't intend for Cassandra to be frozen forever; she says she wants Hera to let Cassandra have a chance of redemption, like Diana, as she says, gave Hera. But keeping her frozen would be a good way to keep her out of trouble until the war with the FB was done.

Forget who's doing the talking, but it was one of the gods asking about "Cassandra the Mad."

I've been able to check issues 34 and 35 now, and I don't see this. I think the only time she's actually called "the Mad" is by the First Born, an issue before Hera stops her and, at Diana's request, spares her.

I was wrong about Cassandra being frozen in crystal, though; that's only some of the hyena men. Hera knocks her out, saying "she'll cause no more trouble for us now"; and Diana responds "we can ALL live with that." Hera's still in the same room with her when Diana leaves; it doesn't look like anyone intends to let her go free to "cause...more trouble." But Diana does certainly plan to see her do more than just lie unconscious on the floor, when all is said and done:

Attachment 16735

Those don't sound like the words of just a pragmatist to me; they sound like the words of a true believer in redemption. By the way, Hera also seems to think that Diana did her a favor, rather than just acting selfishly; before Diana leaves, Hera tries to thank her.

But anyway, at least we agree that the real examples (or, in your view, worse examples) of exaggerating Diana's warrior side in the New 52 occurs in other titles.

[Vanguard-01]

The Olympians should have been best qualified and most appropriate to hold an Olympian prisoner (and they might have been, if Apollo's hubris hadn't gotten in the way.) She didn't need to turn the First Born over to Apollo to get an "audience"; she gets that by inheriting the mantle of War.

She didn't need to, but starting her audience by doing Apollo a "solid" is a good way to get him in a bargaining mood. Or so she thought.

I've been able to check issues 34 and 35 now, and I don't see this. I think the only time she's actually called "the Mad" is by the First Born, an issue before Hera stops her and, at Diana's request, spares her.

I was wrong about Cassandra being frozen in crystal, though; that's only some of the hyena men. Hera knocks her out, saying "she'll cause no more trouble for us now"; and Diana responds "we can ALL live with that." Hera's still in the same room with her when Diana leaves; it doesn't look like anyone intends to let her go free to "cause...more trouble." But Diana does certainly plan to see her do more than just lie unconscious on the floor, when all is said and done:

Attachment 16735

Those don't sound like the words of just a pragmatist to me; they sound like the words of a true believer in redemption. By the way, Hera also seems to think that Diana did her a favor, rather than just acting selfishly; before Diana leaves, Hera tries to thank her.

Pragmatists can still believe in redemption. They're just ready, willing, and able to "deal" with the subject when (not if) he/she proves irredeemable.

And, again, Diana didn't give Hera much of a chance. She protected her and sucked up to her in the hopes of getting Hera to do her a favor. It was Zola who did the real redemption work.

But, anyway. You're right. Azz's run isn't the worst example of the topic of this thread. A topic from which we've veered slightly. So let's just drop it before we provoke the Wrath of Gaelforce!

[Mel Dyer]

...I've been able to check issues 34 and 35 now, and I don't see this. I think the only time she's actually called "the Mad" is by the First Born, an issue before Hera stops her and, at Diana's request, spares her...

Actually, the first time she's called 'Cassandra the Mad' is when she appears in rags, after surviving the destruction of her Bond-villain airship thing, ..and it is the First Born, her god, who mock-christens her with that name. I speculated once that her surname might be 'Loren', after the time-travelling TV supervillain, Cassandra, ..but, it's never mentioned in the story. Anyway, she never rejects the name or challenges the First Born over it, and he continues to call her by that name, at least two more times, during the story arc.

The First Born also called her 'Voiceless of God', once, mocking her cult days, when she went by 'Voice of God'. However, since Lummox ripped her throat out, destroying her witching voice, I don't think 'Cassandra the Mad' is going anywhere.

Gotta call her something.

[AmiMizuno]

My problem with her is that Cassandra was unless that added someone to a long story with no many fillers she was not needed it. She could didn't need to be made. What purpose did she have none. I hate villains that seem to be interesting but wind up being nothing of a threat.

[Silvanus]

She didn't need to, but starting her audience by doing Apollo a "solid" is a good way to get him in a bargaining mood. Or so she thought.

What she "thought," according to issue 24, is that she'd rather not go to Olympus at all. There's no hint that she did anything to try to "get him in a bargaining mood," or even that she went into the meeting with a plan or intent to bargain; to me, it looks like she didn't even expect the gods to want her to actively take up Ares' mantle, and when they did, she came up with her condition on the spot.

Had she really spared the First Born as a weird favor to Apollo and as a "bargaining chip," she would have had to do this in the page or so between her tearful goodbye to Ares and her conversation with Hades in 23. She would have had to decide that Apollo would prefer a live prisoner to corpse, and she would have been essentially lying to Hades when she said the reason she was sparing the FB was that there had already been enough killing. She also would, I suppose, have been faking her reluctance to go to Olympus when Hermes came to get her for the meeting, at the beginning of 24. It all seems extremely improbable, to say the least, and out of keeping with the mood and themes of those issues.

Yours is a creative interpretation; it's just not grounded in the text. But I myself have been accused of "scribbling in the margins" by interpreting by taking interpretive liberties that occasionally border on fan fic--so I'm not judging.

Pragmatists can still believe in redemption. They're just ready, willing, and able to "deal" with the subject when (not if) he/she proves irredeemable.

Pragmatists can believe anything; they just don't necessarily act according to their beliefs. But if you want to say that she is that elusive champion "the pragmatic idealist"--always guided by ideals and principles, yet flexible and practical enough to adapt to changing circumstances and get the job done--I can get behind that. I'd say it about Marston's Wonder Woman as well.

And, again, Diana didn't give Hera much of a chance. She protected her and sucked up to her in the hopes of getting Hera to do her a favor. It was Zola who did the real redemption work.

She did protect her, yes, and she saw the possibility for good in her, just as, in 34, she tries to see the possibility for good that Lennox once saw in Cassandra. That she hoped for help from Hera doesn't contradict the idea that she also saw and nurtured this possibility for good; in fact, it goes hand in hand with that idea, because if Wonder Woman hadn't seen positive potential in Hera, she wouldn't have believed she could ever get help from her without somehow coercing her. In the end (issue 34), Wonder Woman actually says that she gave Hera a chance at redemption, and Hera shows that she is grateful and willing to pay it forward; and I think the text "expects" us to agree with the characters about this.

I also thought Wonder Woman's so-called "pep talk" to Hera, after Zola's departure from London, was a pretty pivotal moment in the queen's character development, and I take it as representative of their overall relationship; after all, we couldn't see every interaction Wonder Woman and Hera had while they were living in London together, so we pretty much have to assume that what we see--Diana saying that she'll be respected as queen, offering her room service, asking about her being mortal had affected her, and then finally teaching her about self-reliance--is representative of their overall relationship.

In other words...sometimes people have layers of motives. Wonder Woman wanted something concrete from Hera, sure, but she also wanted to bring out Hera's best self, just as she does with Siracca, Milan, Orion (on New Genesis), and most people she meets. Even Athena in the final couple of pages of the run. As Chiang said (more or less--I'm paraphrasing from memory) in an interview, this ability to be a positive influence on people is, metaphorically, her greatest superpower.

Let's step back and think about it from a storytelling or genre-focussede perspective: In a "warrior" book--or even most superhero books--the events would have been set up so that Wonder Woman could win the Amazons' restoration through fights and super-feats. In a Wonder Woman comic, she wins the Amazons' restoration by protecting, hosting and inspiring her enemy. That ability to inspire and to influence by love is the quality that makes this hero more than just a warrior, and I see (and hear about) that quality a lot in Azz's run.

But, anyway. You're right. Azz's run isn't the worst example of the topic of this thread.

You say "isn't the worst," I say "is a great counterexample." But, close enough.

[Silvanus]

Actually, the first time she's called 'Cassandra the Mad' is when she appears in rags, after surviving the destruction of her Bond-villain airship thing,

The First Born does give that name, and, like I said, I think he's the only one who has called her that so far. You're right that he gives her the name earlier than I thought. It's not right after the destruction of the air-ship, though; in that issue (29 or 30), he only calls her the other name you mentioned, Voiceless of God. I'm pretty sure "Cassandra the Mad" comes after he drives her mad by starving her and then feeding her assistant to her. ETA--I checked, and it looks like he gave her the name in issue 32, when he sent her the Minotaur after her to Paradise Island to make sure she stuck to the plan.

Anyway, sure, if the name fits, use it.

Just to try to relate this back to the thread: I wouldn't mind seeing Cassandra getting warrior training on Paradise Island as part (not all) of the effort to give her a chance at redemption. Diana and the Amazons might think the discipline and honor of a warrior could help her recover her sanity and even some of the goodness Lennox saw in her. That would be a positive sense of "warrior," emphasizing discipline and honor and not just bloodlust.

[Agent Z]

The First Born does give that name, and, like I said, I think he's the only one who has called her that so far. It's not right after the destruction of the air-ship, though; I just checked, and in that issue, he only calls her the other name you mentioned, Voiceless of God. I'm pretty sure "Cassandra the Mad" comes after he drives her mad by starving her and then feeding her assistant to her.

Anyway, sure, if the name fits, use it.

Just to try to relate this back to the thread: I wouldn't mind seeing Cassandra getting warrior training on Paradise Island as part (not all) of the effort to give her a chance at redemption. Diana and the Amazons might think the discipline and honor of a warrior could help her recover her sanity and even some of the goodness Lennox saw in her. That would be a positive sense of "warrior," emphasizing discipline and honor and not just bloodlust.

It's a lot easier to cast scientist and philosopher in a positive light than warrior.

[Silvanus]

It's a lot easier to cast scientist and philosopher in a positive light than warrior.

I agree, though Cassandra has turned science and scholarship--from archaeological research to her invention of a god tracker--to perverse purposes. And the Amazons have always cast warrior training in a positive light; it was key to the Mala's work with former villains on Reformation Island in Marston's comics. Cassandra the Mad appears to have a lot of aggression built up, to say the very least, and she may need a constructive avenue for it and a discipline, like a warrior's code, to contain it. But if some other writer wants to show her finding her redemption in philosophy or science (like Paula did in Marston's comics), that would be great.

[Blacksun]

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[gwhh]

No way. Amazons are warriors FIRST. Everything else 2nd. Even Wondy. They should put more of that into the stories lines, war tell a great story also!

[Hawk80]

No way. Amazons are warriors FIRST. Everything else 2nd. Even Wondy. They should put more of that into the stories lines, war tell a great story also!

Fine. Extraterrestrial are not supposed to be human-like, then DC should change that too. Superman should definitely look like a little green man!

WW amazons =/= Greek Myth amazons. Deliberately. Never thought that this could be a source of confusion...

[Nipower888]

I feel like the amazons are or should be an all female utopian society that excels at arts, sciences, etc. Making them too warrior focused takes away from the magic and can make them brutes

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

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I can see Wonder Woman being great friend with Jack Bauer.