New Avengers #29 - Spoilers

[robreedwrites]

Side issues
A couple of posters are suggesting that secret wars will begin with the MU and the UU colliding, but we know that this happens at the end of Secret Wars #1 from the press conference.

Also this story is primarily about the Illuminati themselves. Their situation and their struggle, I am pretty sure Hickman will resolve that story in the remaining issues. The wider story of the cataclysmic things happening will obviously run into Secret Wars.

Did no one else get the impression that Franklyn actually died here? I wouldn't expect Reed to talk of greater cost and just be referring to Franklyn's unfortunate mental fatigue or loss of innocence.

I know Franklyn has a bigger part to play in what Hickman has been setting up since his Fantastic Four run but things looked serious here.

We know he's alive due to the dialogue between Reed and Sue. In addition, in that panel, it appears Franklin is arapping his arm around Reed. The device may have been physically harming him.

[ShaokhaN]

After mind wiping Steve, I'd argue he's got the right to say any damn thing he wants at this point. It's not like he hasn't been more than fair about working with them since they all got back together. Are there hurt feelings? Yes. That's what happens when you mind wipe people. But they're still doing the job. Aside from T'Challa and Namor, everyone has put aside their personal beefs which is about as much as you can ask of them at this point. Asking them to be "nice" to each other is probably asking too much.

SKJoker is spot-on. The only reason the Illuminati had such a hard time working on the incursion problem for all of these months is that Cap, Hawkeye & friends were hunting them down. So if Hawkeye's going to ask them what progress they've made, he should do so without the accusatory tone or shut the hell up.

[JKtheMac]

We know he's alive due to the dialogue between Reed and Sue. In addition, in that panel, it appears Franklin is arapping his arm around Reed. The device may have been physically harming him.

Ah yes thanks just reread that. Strange choice of words for this issue then.

[Viteh]

Super Saiyan Carol 3 is the best.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

No, I meant the Maw. The digital series, Thanos: A God Up There Listening makes you wonder what Maw actually is.

spoilers:

It's shown in the flashbacks that he died before Thanos attacked Earth. So it's clear that he's either in Thane's head or a spirit of some kind.

end of spoilers.

Oh, okay. That's interesting.

[vitruvian]

I always thought the Beyonder literally became the New Universe. Which is part of the reason I wasn't a fan of the cube retcon. But it also makes Hickman playing with both kinda interesting.

That's why I said 'creating/turning into', since it wasn't clear if it was more one or the other... the end of SWII suggested becoming the whole universe, while the next appearance where Doom et al went there showed his consciousness still being in control of things, remembering his experiences in our universe, and being able to manifest himself within that universe. But then, the two things aren't necessarily in conflict... he was essentially the immanent deity of that universe, both coextensive with and present in every part of the universe, and able to manifest within it.

[vitruvian]

I think of Hickman's run in Marvel as all of pop physics thrown into one great story.

Issac Newton in S.H.I.E.L.D. discovered both the Quiet Math, that is quantum mechanics and thus the universe, and the Silent Truth, that is, string theory, and thus how to hack the multiverse using the special powers of the Star Child.

Everything in the multiverse is discrete, quantized, such as the possible parameter space and thus the number of universes. But even in discrete systems past a certain complexity one gets intelligence. The multiverse can be seen as either a computer, Newton's view convenient so he could hack it, or a living organism.

And the motive is Newton being Newton in any incarnation historical or fictional. Newton was a genius who simply thought he had to be right, in anything. That is why he was so obsessed with alchemy, because he could never admit he had made an error. And so in Hickman's universe, Newton made an error. He asserted that he had seen the actual devastating future of Earth where humanity had attempted to use extraterrestrial knowledge to better itself, and that this attempt would lead to humanity's destruction. Only the multiverse says that ain't so, that there are many possibilities.

So Newton had to make it so, that there would be only one universe. And for that, the multiverse had to die.

That would be the Newton of a different universe, though, right? Because again, we know the Great Destroyer was NOT born in the 616, and the Incursions didn't start there.

[vitruvian]

Hmm, so The Beyonders are the Ivory Kings and this is the faction that Black Swan was so concerned about. Combine that with Stange's suggestion that they are also seeking destruction and the whole catylist theory put forward from this issue suggesting somthing happened to drastically speed up the Multiverse's destruction.

Black Swan clearly wants the Earths to be sacrificed. Maybe The Beyonders are preventing that sacrifice by removing whole universes off the map. To Strange that would look like destruction. To Reed it would seem like a sudden reduction in universes.

The whole thing with universes being destroyed could easily be a misdirect in the end, with the Incursions actually just moving the two universes affected out of the local sheaf of realities into a different one, where they can't be accessed or observed from the current multiverse. The observed facts would be the same as if they were destroyed; survivors of Incursions would have no way of knowing that their home universes had been moved elsewhere rather than destroyed, while those still within those universes would be unable to communicate the fact that they still existed.... elsewhere. Hyperion was left behind in white space because he was trying to stop the collision manually, and of course those universes that blew up Earths to avoid Incursions completing never see the final result, they never get to travel to the new multiverse, they actually accelerated their end. The Ivory Kings or whoever are now interfering with the process of realities circling the drain to their new home, taking the chunks from the Incursion zones to make up the Battleworld, because that's how they roll.

Would it feel like a cheat? To an extent, yes, but I don't think it would be, not really, not if everything that the heroes and the Black Swans and all the other players below the level of the Great Destroyer and the Ivory Kings could possibly observe would be exactly the same in this interpretation.

And it would have the advantage/disadvantage of actually making Steve objectively right, because blowing up Earths in this view doesn't actually serve any useful purpose.

[davew128]

That would be the Newton of a different universe, though, right? Because again, we know the Great Destroyer was NOT born in the 616, and the Incursions didn't start there.

This presumes that Newton is the Great Destroyer. A strong case could be made that the characters of SHIELD ARE from 616 (Howard Stark, Nathaniel Richards), and its at least possible that in the last two issues to yet print that in the future where they end up is where the Destroyer comes from. Remember that this future is the same one Steve Rogers went to and met the various Kangs.

[vitruvian]

This presumes that Newton is the Great Destroyer.

Well, yeah, it presumes that for a very simple reason... I was responding to a post theorizing that Newton was behind it all, i.e., the Great Destroyer, and I was reminding jphamlore that the Great Destroyer is not from the 616 universe... so if it was Newton, it has to be an alternate one. Context is pretty important here. Newton = Great Destroyer is not my theory, but one I was poking a hole in.

A strong case could be made that the characters of SHIELD ARE from 616 (Howard Stark, Nathaniel Richards), and its at least possible that in the last two issues to yet print that in the future where they end up is where the Destroyer comes from. Remember that this future is the same one Steve Rogers went to and met the various Kangs.

Yes, they're 616, and therefore they're not it. And that future is not the home reality of the Great Destroyer, not if it's actually the future of the 616 as opposed to an alternate reality that SHIELD just thinks is the real future.... which I suppose is a possibility to consider.

[Emma's Midriff]

SKJoker is spot-on. The only reason the Illuminati had such a hard time working on the incursion problem for all of these months is that Cap, Hawkeye & friends were hunting them down. So if Hawkeye's going to ask them what progress they've made, he should do so without the accusatory tone or shut the hell up.

I don't buy that. If they had time to leave troll-ish messages while casually playing chess, they had time to work on the incursion problem.

[vitruvian]

I don't buy that. If they had time to leave troll-ish messages while casually playing chess, they had time to work on the incursion problem.

And as it turns out, they did, but nothing worked. Although I don't know if they really tried everything supergeniuses of that sort should have been able to think of.

[XPac]

SKJoker is spot-on. The only reason the Illuminati had such a hard time working on the incursion problem for all of these months is that Cap, Hawkeye & friends were hunting them down. So if Hawkeye's going to ask them what progress they've made, he should do so without the accusatory tone or shut the hell up.

And if they didn't keep this from everyone and mind wipe Steve Mayne they wouldn't be hunted. Heck given that it took 5 seconds for them to convince Steve to work with them you can even argue they should have just given up.

Bottom line is both sides made their share of mistakes and that justifies both sides getting heat for their choices. But as long as they can still work together it's fine.

[Punisher007]

And as it turns out, they did, but nothing worked. Although I don't know if they really tried everything supergeniuses of that sort should have been able to think of.

Maybe if Remender had bothered to actually SHOW any of that instead of awkwardly expositing it all NOW, it'd be more believable. Show don't tell, Hickman fails to understand this simple concept apparently. And the Illuminati are in trouble because they're arrogant morons who decided to keep this a secret from EVERYONE because apparently ONLY THEY needed/were fit to deal with this problem. And as it turned out, they weren't. They brought this on themselves through their own stupidity and egos.

[Fordel]

How many more issues does this arc last? We almost at the end?

This feels likes its been going no where 'forever' to me.