New Avengers #29 - Spoilers

[vitruvian]

I honestly think Hickman has done more than enough to convince us that the evacuation wasn't possible. The fact that we have seen other possible ways of evacuating a whole planet within a year within the MU is just a failing of previous writers more than anything.

Nope, he hasn't... even ignoring other storylines completely, with a Cosmic Cube in hand, they could have evacuated everybody to terraformed Mars... and we know that star hasn't committed suicide, now don't we?

Plus it's not like he wasn't the one having Black Swan say it could work in the first place.

All Hickman needs to do is suggest the Illuminati know more than the readers about the feasibilities, and show a few actual worked examples of the easiest or most 'Illuminati like' solutions failing and then the reader can fill in their own reasons why other possibilities might have failed.

Taking a high ground and assuming that as comic readers we could have solved it is a little self defeating and a total rejection of the premise.

It's not readers suggesting that they, personally, could have solved it... it's readers saying, well, if Reed just pulled this trick that he in fact succeeded with in story X, why wouldn't that work? And therefore wanting to be shown why that option, which the character should remember having worked, wouldn't this time.

Which, if this is meant to be the same Reed Richards, T'Challa, Tony, etc., I think is a fair point to make.

And then there are the new solutions that occur to readers based solely on what Hickman has set up in this storyline... and if they occur to readers, then if these characters are supposed to be such geniuses, they couldn't have missed them. There may be reasons for those to fail as well, of course, but the writer ignoring them doesn't show us that.

The most annoying thing from Hickman's perspective is Remender undermined him by having the mutants effectively do the same thing a few months ago, but Remender did much more to screw with the plan than that. It is a failing of editorial that these things are allowed to happen concurrently.

Well, yeah... it certainly showed us that evacuation of at least the mutants from an Earth about to be destroyed was perfectly possible.

Of course, by that same token, the disappearance of all the Earthless universes in this current story tells us that Remender's Planet X was shortly doomed, anyway, right? Although how did Katie grow up so much in a little more than eight months?

[teepee]

Nope, he hasn't... even ignoring other storylines completely, with a Cosmic Cube in hand, they could have evacuated everybody to terraformed Mars... and we know that star hasn't committed suicide, now don't we?

No he hasn't. Also Counter Earth is back, which would be even better (co-incidently the very first mention of the Beyonders was when they stole Counter Earth back in the 1980's, a plot thread that I don't think was ever adaquately explained.)

But more relevant, he needs to explain why the universes that had their Earths destroyed are still gone. The whole premis of the incursion storyline is wrong. Black Swan was either wrong or fibbing. Which is fine, but needs some explaining.

I guess that someone didn't want it to happen and 616 has some special status. I hope that someone isn't jsut Hickman.

[vitruvian]

No he hasn't. Also Counter Earth is back, which would be even better (co-incidently the very first mention of the Beyonders was when they stole Counter Earth back in the 1980's, a plot thread that I don't think was ever adaquately explained.)

But more relevant, he needs to explain why the universes that had their Earths destroyed are still gone. The whole premis of the incursion storyline is wrong. Black Swan was either wrong or fibbing. Which is fine, but needs some explaining.

I guess that someone didn't want it to happen and 616 has some special status. I hope that someone isn't jsut Hickman.

Well, to be fair, Black Swan is the very definition of an unreliable witness, plus Hickman has Reed already saying that the rules seem to have changed what with the way the time table accelerated, so she could have been telling the truth as she knew it (although always with a slant to it), and that truth just changed over the course of the story.

[davew128]

Like I said earlier, I honestly don't believe there's absolutely NO WAY they couldn't sucessfully evacuate the planet. I do get that Hickman was trying to show us that they did everything possible... but other worlds were able to sucessfully evacuate and it's just hard to imagine with all the resources the 616 had they couldn't. Still think a simple phone call to Lila Chenney could have done the job.

No it wouldn't for the same reason the cosmic cube solution failed. Stars are killing themselves. Without a star, a dyson sphere won't survive.

[Sardorim]

If Beyonder shows up I will be disappointed if, during Secret Wars, he doesn't remember Rachel Grey-Summers.

[davew128]

Nope, he hasn't... even ignoring other storylines completely, with a Cosmic Cube in hand, they could have evacuated everybody to terraformed Mars... and we know that star hasn't committed suicide, now don't we?

You're forgetting the cube was destroyed in the attempt to make another when its star died. That SHOULDN'T have happened, and tells me there's another force at play here. Even had they made another cube, its somewhat implied the result would be the same now, and I suspect its the Beyonders, since they're the ones who infuse power into the cubes.

[XPac]

[QUOTE=davew128;892921]

Like I said earlier, I honestly don't believe there's absolutely NO WAY they couldn't sucessfully evacuate the planet. I do get that Hickman was trying to show us that they did everything possible... but other worlds were able to sucessfully evacuate and it's just hard to imagine with all the resources the 616 had they couldn't. Still think a simple phone call to Lila Chenney could have done the job.[/QUOTE]No it wouldn't for the same reason the cosmic cube solution failed. Stars are killing themselves. Without a star, a dyson sphere won't survive.

Certainly not every star has been destroyed. And in the least, she'd be pretty helpful as far as helping to evacuate the planet onto Mars (which was conveniently terra formed) or Counter Earth or wherever.

None of this of course necessarily translates to a long term sollution. All I am suggesting is that they should be capable of evacuating the planet. I cannot buy that they would be incapable of doing that much at least.

[davew128]

Certainly not every star has been destroyed. And in the least, she'd be pretty helpful as far as helping to evacuate the planet onto Mars (which was conveniently terra formed) or Counter Earth or wherever.

None of this of course necessarily translates to a long term sollution. All I am suggesting is that they should be capable of evacuating the planet. I cannot buy that they would be incapable of doing that much at least.

Well you're not wrong, but the bigger problem is that reality is breaking down and they are running out of safe places to exist. We saw the Ex Nihili point out that stars are killing themselves. There is no permanent or even long term solution anymore.

[vitruvian]

No it wouldn't for the same reason the cosmic cube solution failed. Stars are killing themselves. Without a star, a dyson sphere won't survive.

Like I said, we know of at least one star that's not committing suicide just yet.

Also, are the stars in the Negative Zone dying off in the same way? Maybe it's time for Project 42.... billion.

[vitruvian]

You're forgetting the cube was destroyed in the attempt to make another when its star died. That SHOULDN'T have happened, and tells me there's another force at play here. Even had they made another cube, its somewhat implied the result would be the same now, and I suspect its the Beyonders, since they're the ones who infuse power into the cubes.

So, you're saying if they'd tried to set up a haven elsewhere in the solar system, the Sun would have chosen that moment to commit suicide? Or that the Cube would have destroyed itself when they tried to do anything useful with it, like transport everybody to Mars?

If it's not either of those, then Mars would have worked, at least for a bit.

[Habis]

No it wouldn't for the same reason the cosmic cube solution failed. Stars are killing themselves. Without a star, a dyson sphere won't survive.

With a Cosmic Cube, the death of the stars wouldn't be a problem. Create an artificial sun, a lamp that orbites around the new planet, able to burn for billions of years. Or what the heck, create the planet in the remote past and send Humanity there.

The only reason I can accept for the Illuminati being unable to evacuate Earth despite having a Cosmic Cube, is that the Beyonders are directily sabotaging their efforts.

[vitruvian]

Well you're not wrong, but the bigger problem is that reality is breaking down and they are running out of safe places to exist. We saw the Ex Nihili point out that stars are killing themselves. There is no permanent or even long term solution anymore.

Did they check what rate this was actually going on at? Or if stars were committing suicide in the Negative Zone, or in the various Microverses? Or what's happening in Other Realm? Did they consider transporting the entire population and infrastructure into the Permian era to provide millions of years to figure things out? There are plenty of bolt holes at least worth checking...

[ExcelsiorPrime]

If Beyonder shows up I will be disappointed if, during Secret Wars, he doesn't remember Rachel Grey-Summers.

Beyonder side-note> I also hope he remembers how to use the bathroom and how to eat... his first tries at both were dangerous.

[vitruvian]

Side note:

I know that Franklin in Reed's machine failed to stop the Incursion process, but I'm still curious as to what has happened to the universe Franklin created in his closet way back in Fantastic Four #574. Has it suffered an Incursion? Are the stars in it dying? Did it just kill itself off like the Earthless universes? Or does it have an Earth in it and count as one of the last 22?

Or does it not actually count as a universe for some reason?

[robreedwrites]

It did occur to me that the only Illuminati member (that we know for sure) knows of terraformed Mars is Stark. He may just be too stupid/prideful to have mentioned it. And now he's inverted. However, since Hickman brought it into play early on, I expect it will be addressed.