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  1. #2371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    That and also they maybe treated him too much like Martian Manhunter, in terms of being the member who never really got all that much emphasis as a standalone character. When you look at the original 7 members, compared to all the others, J'onn was always the guy who was kind of "there". He did have his own backstory and some supporting characters here and there(he even got a niece!), but outside of that, he really didn't have much else going for him. Occasionally you'd see a MM mini-series or him playing a bigger role in a JL story against some White Martians, etc. But other than that, he was the guy with not that much to do on his own. When you really think about how pissed some people got when he was replaced in the New 52, it's kind of ironic since Vic basically ended up playing the same role. The guy without his own standalone book who often stayed in the Watchtower, pondered if people would accept him or not, felt like he didn't belong, felt sort of like an "afterthought" just like you said. But with Vic it seemed way more jarring because of course he was a black character. DC should've just known better.
    What you said about Manhunter is true-he got all those little things in Justice League that Cyborg has not. People were mad about Manhunter getting taken out because he FIT that part in Justice League-especially in the cartoon.

    Cyborg DOES NOT. Manhunter was never made to be an after thought in Justice League like Cyborg was. Cyborg was somebody in Teen Titans-where you HAD to do something with him the way you did with Manhunter in Justice League.

    Dc thought you could just switch them and nobody would notice. Sorry folks will NOTICE how a black male is treated in a book. Especially when you look over at Marvel and see Miles, Luke Cage, Falcon & Black Panther. You got told straight up they mattered. No matter the backlash. Even Mosaic-folks got FREE previews and books about him.

    Where was that for Cyborg? Where are the variants on ALL book like we saw with BP & SW? Where was his role in events? There are MORE comments on Duke Thomas & Moon Girl than Cyborg.

    Where is all this stuff to sell him?

    I mean how amazing could a crossover of Cyborg/The BORG would be? The Borg get mother box technology? Cyborg/GI Joe? Cyborg/Unicron? Or a Cyborg company event?

  2. #2372
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Sure, MM totally didn't seem like an afterthought, that's why for 50 years he didn't get a single long-lasting standalone book. Compare MM's treatment over the years to the way even the "secondary" original members like Aquaman or Flash have been treated and he starts to looks like an afterthought very fast.

    You're correct about Marvel, as compared to DC's treatment of Cyborg, they absolutely treated minority characters like Sam or Miles much better, but often at the expense of their "classic" characters and alienated lots of fans in the process. In any event, Cyborg could "fit" the JL just as good as J'onn did, as long as DC made the effort to do so. It's just a shame they seemingly didn't give it much thought sooner than they did.

    I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
    Last edited by Johnny; 01-06-2017 at 05:59 AM.

  3. #2373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Sure, MM totally didn't seem like an afterthought, that's why for 50 years he didn't get a single long-lasting standalone book. Compare MM's treatment over the years to the way even the "secondary" original members like Aquaman or Flash have been treated and he starts to looks like an afterthought very fast.

    You're correct about Marvel, as compared to DC's treatment of Cyborg, they absolutely treated minority characters like Sam or Miles much better, but often at the expense of their "classic" characters and alienated lots fans in the process. In any event, Cyborg could "fit" the JL just as good as J'onn did, as long as DC made the effort to do so. It's just a shame they seemingly didn't give it much thought sooner than they did.


    I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
    I prefer Marvel's way to DC's way any day of the week. Comic fans will always be upset about something being changed from the status quo. And if you add a nonwhite character to the mix, they'll get even more upset. When Cyborg was first brought onto the Justice League, people said over and over again that his inclusion was "forced" and "stupid" and DC was just trying to be PC, and those were the exact same comments that people said about Miles, and Sam Wilson and and Kamala Kahn, and all the other nonwhite heroes.

    The difference between Cyborg and the others? The others were pushed to the forefront and supported regardless of Comic fans' disapproval. People are going to have a problem with nonwhite heroes, no matter how you introduce them. And if you work to ensure that you're customer base is comfortable with these new nonwhite heroes, the property you're trying to support won't get any support at all. Marvel may have alienated some fans, but I like that they're working hard to make their property inclusive.

    In fact here's an article on it:

    Honestly, if those comic fans don't want these minority heroes taking the mantles of established white heroes, they should be the ones buying books like Cyborg...

  4. #2374
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    I can only speak for myself, I don't mind changes from the status quo. That's fine, it's comic books and you need to break away from the norm every now and then. I have been a casual Marvel observer for years now so I don't take what they are doing to heart. Some people being upset about those changes, in my view, may not be about the mere fact of replacing white heroes with non-white heroes, but more like "how" they went on about it. Feel free to correct me because like I said I haven't been following Marvel closely for a long time: Hulk is now "dead", Stark is in a "coma"(or something), Cap is a "villain", Thor is "unworthy", Wolverine is "old", Parker is a frat boy, etc. Maybe that's why a lot of those folks got mad, not just because the new Cap is black or the new Thor is female. Perhaps they felt that Marvel scuttled those characters who were the reason the company became successful, for the sake of their new initiative. Or maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as just "We don't want a black Cap".

    With Cyborg, perhaps some people were against it because he was the only minority character that DC put the muscle behind. It's one thing when you replace all of your main characters with minorities, it's another when you bring one minority character to the forefront, without even accentuating on his actual personality and story, and still expect everyone to automatically embrace him just because he is an original African-American superhero and not a recycled version of someone else. That's where DC messed up in my view, as compared to Marvel who, regardless of what fans thought, clearly knew how they were going to push their new characters going forward.

  5. #2375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I can only speak for myself, I don't mind changes from the status quo. That's fine, it's comic books and you need to break away from the norm every now and then. I have been a casual Marvel observer for years now so I don't take what they are doing to heart. Some people being upset about those changes, in my view, may not be about the mere fact of replacing white heroes with non-white heroes, but more like "how" they went on about it. Feel free to correct me because like I said I haven't been following Marvel closely for a long time: Hulk is now "dead", Stark is in a "coma"(or something), Cap is a "villain", Thor is "unworthy", Wolverine is "old", Parker is a frat boy, etc. Maybe that's why a lot of those folks got mad, not just because the new Cap is black or the new Thor is female. Perhaps they felt that Marvel scuttled those characters who were the reason the company became successful, for the sake of their new initiative. Or maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as just "We don't want a black Cap".

    With Cyborg, perhaps some people were against it because he was the only minority character that DC put the muscle behind. It's one thing when you replace all of your main characters with minorities, it's another when you bring one minority character to the forefront, without even accentuating on his actual personality and story, and still expect everyone to automatically embrace him just because he is an original African-American superhero and not a recycled version of someone else. That's where DC messed up in my view, as compared to Marvel who, regardless of what fans thought, clearly knew how they were going to push their new characters going forward.
    I can tell you from personal experience that many people were pissed off about the fact those heroes weren't white. Did you read Captain America: Truth? Because many fans were pusses that there was a black Cap, even though the white Cap was still very much around. And when Elijah Bradley came onto the scene (even though Steve was still around) that ire returned.

    Currently I'm on my iPhone but I'll go over your post in more detail once I've returned home.

  6. #2376
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Yeah, I remember that book. Don't you mean Isaiah Bradley? Elijah was his son or grandson? Was he Captain America too at some point? This is around the time my Marvel knowledge start to get foggy.

  7. #2377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Yeah, I remember that book. Don't you mean Isaiah Bradley? Elijah was his son or grandson? Was he Captain America too at some point? This is around the time my Marvel knowledge start to get foggy.
    I mean both Isaiah and Elijah. Fans hated Isaiah for existing, and fans hated Elijah for reminding them that Isaiah existed

  8. #2378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I can only speak for myself, I don't mind changes from the status quo. That's fine, it's comic books and you need to break away from the norm every now and then. I have been a casual Marvel observer for years now so I don't take what they are doing to heart. Some people being upset about those changes, in my view, may not be about the mere fact of replacing white heroes with non-white heroes, but more like "how" they went on about it. Feel free to correct me because like I said I haven't been following Marvel closely for a long time: Hulk is now "dead", Stark is in a "coma"(or something), Cap is a "villain", Thor is "unworthy", Wolverine is "old", Parker is a frat boy, etc. Maybe that's why a lot of those folks got mad, not just because the new Cap is black or the new Thor is female. Perhaps they felt that Marvel scuttled those characters who were the reason the company became successful, for the sake of their new initiative. Or maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's as simple as just "We don't want a black Cap".

    With Cyborg, perhaps some people were against it because he was the only minority character that DC put the muscle behind. It's one thing when you replace all of your main characters with minorities, it's another when you bring one minority character to the forefront, without even accentuating on his actual personality and story, and still expect everyone to automatically embrace him just because he is an original African-American superhero and not a recycled version of someone else. That's where DC messed up in my view, as compared to Marvel who, regardless of what fans thought, clearly knew how they were going to push their new characters going forward.
    Alright, so about this post. From my experience, when it comes to comic books (or really, any kind of geek experience) people have always had problems with nonwhite heroes coming into the spotlight (even if the hero those nonwhite characters are "replacing" are still around).

    We've already gone over Isaiah and Elijah Bradley on the Marvel side, but the same thing has happened on the DC side (take the huge hate for Duke Thomas that keeps happening in Batman circles, or when Kaldur'ahm was created for Young Justice, he was named "Blaqualad" and many people kept demanding that he die as soon as possible so that Robin could become the leader in his stead.

    Even with Miles Morales (who at the time of his appearance was relegated to the Ultimate universe of the Marvel world) was hated, even though Peter Parker was still the prominent Spiderman in the main 616 verse.

    My problem with DC's inclusion of Cyborg was that they routinely pussy footed around the guy. It always was "We don't want to push too hard, less Cyborg get backlash". Well, Cyborg was getting backlash for simply being on a prominent team. He was also getting backlash for being "useless" (and that was due to DC not building him up as a solo character) And the people who actually liked Cyborg complained about his lack of focus, and were always shut down for it.

    Frankly, comic fans/nerds/superhero aficionados are always going to complain when a nonwhite hero gets a place of prominence in any narrative, whether that character is established or not, whether that character is an original character, or a legacy hero. That's always going to be the way it works.

    And trying to ease your customer base into accepting characters who aren't white isn't going to work either, because historically speaking, it never has. I'd much rather have had DC shoving Cyborg down our throats for the past 5-6 years, building him up as a character who can stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest, rather than the severe cop-outs DC has been doing.

  9. #2379
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    I totally understand where you're coming from. Fans of everything are resistant to any type of change to their favorite product, that's obviously not going to change regardless if publishers shove certain characters down the throats or not. Speaking of that, not counting the lack of character build, isn't this basically what they've been doing with Cyborg especially in other media for the past 5-6 years? I still see comments on YT videos with Cyborg that say something like "OK Geoff Johns, Cyborg is a JL member, we got it already". Doesn't that sound like someone who clearly feels that Vic has been shoved down their throat. It's kind of funny how people never seem to get tired of Batman being consistently shoved down their throat in everything all the time, but somehow Cyborg is the problem.

  10. #2380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I totally understand where you're coming from. Fans of everything are resistant to any type of change, that's obviously not going to change regardless if publishers shove certain characters down the throats or not. Speaking of that, not counting the lack of character build, isn't this basically what they've been doing with Cyborg especially in other media for the past 5-6 years? I still see comments on YT videos with Cyborg that say something like "OK Geoff Johns, Cyborg is a JL member, we got it already". Doesn't that sound like someone who clearly feels that Vic has been shoved down their throat. It's kind of funny how people never seem to get tired of Batman being consistently shoved down their throat in everything all the time, but somehow Cyborg is the problem.
    Personally, I never counted Cyborg just showing up on the team, and languishing in the background to be "shoving him down our throats." Take how Batman is marketed, besides the comic and multiple spinoff titles he has under his belt, he has the most television shows, direct to DVD movies, specials, etc. Of course, Batman has more of a history with DC and is DC's biggest money maker, but I expected DC to at least do right by Cyborg as a JL member. By that I mean

    1. An ongoing comic book from the beginning to new 52. By now, we could have had at least 4 different arcs to build up Cyborg's mythos.
    2. A direct to DVD movie that revolved around Cyborg, or at least a film that features him heavily. (each member of the Justice League has at least one of those, and Aquaman had Throne of Atlantis where everyone was nerfed to make Arthur look better).
    3. Merchandise. If Cyborg having a logo was so damn important to DC (and important enough to change his really cool, updated design to the old boring one) then we should at least a T-shirt with the logo on it. Perhaps some action figures. Hell, Ray Fisher has actually made #Borglife a part of the Cyborg brand. Shouldn't DC be capitalizing on that?
    4. I remember when Black Panther started his new ongoing Marvel started releasing little Black Panther videos to market him better. Why couldn't DC do that with Cyborg?
    5. Why not make Cyborg the "golden boy" of the Justice League. And by that I mean, why not give him cool crap to do while on the team, that makes the rest of the squad (and the audience) look up to him, rather than down at him in pity. I shouldn't open a Justice League book and think "I wonder how long Cyborg's gonna mope about not having a human body in this issue?"

    For the past 5 years, Cyborg has been in the background taking up space. People shouldn't be asking "Why's Cyborg on the Justice League" and if/when they do ask that, the answer should be "Because Cyborg has done XYZ" or "He saved Superman plenty of times" or "The Justice League would have been destroyed if Cyborg didn't..."

    That's a push. Giving Cyborg something cool to do. Giving Cyborg fans something to buy. Giving Ray Fisher some Cyborg gear to be decked out in when he goes to cons (and I'm not just talking about the #Borglife T-shirts he made himself).

  11. #2381
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    I rarely inject optimism in this thread, but I'm feeling a bit "with it" today, so I'll post some oldie's but goodies.



    Origin: Born with a degenerative nervous system, Victor Stone nevertheless became a technological savant and eventually overcame his disability with cybernetics of his own design. Having always been obsessed with human enhancement, he instantly became enamored when news of a “Superman” circulated the world. In an attempt to win the favor of the newly formed Justice League, he proceeded to hack into their systems and even physically challenge them to prove his worth. Despite being ultimately defeated, Victor was accepted as a member and serves as their “IT guy.”

    Powers: Cyborg possesses higher than average human strength, the ability to connect himself to and to control most computer systems, and a greatly enhanced intellect. He also possesses an impressive (though not always fully functioning) array of personal armaments.

    Notes: Cyborg’s current origin (troubled teen who gets in an accident) seemed played out, so I went the technophile angle, which I think is more relevant. It also places a more positive light on Cyborg’s prostheses, as the original origin has a very antiquated “Darth Vader” vibe to it. Here I’ve basically based Cyborg off of Richard Ayoade’s character Moss from The IT Crowd, making him much geekier and emphasizing his intelligence over brute strength. When you’re on a superhero team with the likes of Superman and Wonder Woman, having a gun hand isn’t your greatest attribute. With that in mind, my Cyborg is valued more for his technical skills and madcap ingenuity.
    Last edited by HereNThere; 01-06-2017 at 04:37 PM.

  12. #2382
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    I loved the Dresden Codak ideas.

    Here's the link to the entirety of his redesigns

    http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/...justice-league

    Superman, Powergirl, Green Lantern. Defiantly a more creative approach
    The J-man

    I post via my phone a lot, therefore I make the occasional grammatical error. Not an excuse just forewarning you. Feel free to call me out I won't mind.

  13. #2383
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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  14. #2384
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    Cyborg looks better to me than when I first saw him.

  15. #2385
    Incredible Member HereNThere's Avatar
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    They either should've scaled the face plate back a bit or ditched it all together, because it kinda clashes with the design of the body.

    I had issues with the concept art that was shown on the CW, I think it was last year, but it looked a lot better than this.

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