As Superman fans, do you think Batman is a nuisance in the Justice League ?

[manduck37]

How has Batman been proven to be useless in the League? In the first arc of Nu52 JL, he realized that they needed Superman to stand up to Darkseid and rescued Superman from capture. That didn't make anyone look bad, was cool moment for Batman, and was pretty key in getting Superman into the fight. In Forever Evil, Batman helped the rebel villains break into the base where Nightwing was being held. He was also the only hero not captured by The Crime Syndicate. Once again, no one looked bad and Batman contributed. I didn't read Throne of Atlantis or The Amazo Virus, but in two fairly recent JL stories Batman contributed to the team and it wasn't at the expense of anyone else on the team. So having Batman leave the League to go start up Inc. again isn't the only logical way to go.

[Adekis]

Like others have said, nuisance is a strong word.

I hate when writers make other characters look bad to make Batman look good, but not all his good moments are like that.

That said, I don't always feel like his personality clicks the best with everyone. If they replaced him with Nightwing or GA or the Question or Ted Kord or Mister Terrific or Batwoman or Black Canary or Zatanna or something I wouldn't bat an eye. Heck, they wouldn't even have to replace him with a character who still fits the "no powers" archetype.

But no, Batman isn't a nuisance, he's just a character you need to use strategically.

[Vanguard-01]

That's a myth.

Batman does little to nothing in a lot of the Justice League stories.

Stories like Tower of Babel comes around once in a blue moon.

Sure.

In the same month, we saw Batman curbstomp Darkseid, singlehandedly lay siege to Apokolips, and crush the Justice League.

Yep. Once in a blue moon, alright.

[adkal]

Sure.

In the same month, we saw Batman curbstomp Darkseid, singlehandedly lay siege to Apokolips, and crush the Justice League.

Yep. Once in a blue moon, alright.

Psst:

They weren't 'Justice League stories'

[Ascended]

See thats the problem. You guys are playing to keep here. Loosing a Third of Trinity ? Team dynamic ? Like really ? So these are the reasons why Batman should stay on the Justice League ? Sorry but I find your reasons weak. I never stated that Batman should stop interacting with his former teammates. Batman can still interact with the Justice League with him leading Batman Incorporated. Batman can still guess star in the Justice League book under these circumstances. What I am suggesting is the only logical way to go. I mean have you seen the news today ? Superman is getting another power. Super Sayian Superman basically. More reason as to why Batman should asap the Justice League. Geoff Johns is providing more tools to the Batman being useless in the Justice League supporters.

Yes, those are some very good reasons to keep Batman on the League. "Team dynamic" is the only reason people read the Justice League! We dont read it so we can see Superman and Wonder Woman punch bad people really hard. If that's all we wanted, we can read their solo titles for that. We read Justice League to see the best of the best, the most popular and interesting characters interact and work together. So yes, "team dynamic" is a pretty damned good reason. And Batman's relationship with his team mates is a part of that.

And you say you never said that Batman has to stop interacting with the League. That's what "quitting" is. He'd leave the team. As in, not be around anymore. Guest spots? Sure, that'd be fun now and then. Know what else would be fun? Seeing Batman used well on a regular basis.

Additionally, there's no reason Batman Inc couldnt be re-started with Bruce still on the League. Now on this, we agree. I'd love to see Inc brought back. But its not an "either/or" thing. That can happen with Batman still on the League.

Once again, you're blaming bad writing on the character and not the writer. What if the next writer who comes along makes Flash an unstoppable force who makes the rest of the League look pointless? Does that mean that suddenly Barry doesnt belong on the League? Or maybe it means the rest of the League is pointless and the Justice League title should just showcase Barry and no one else? After all, Flash can run through time and dimensions. What does he need the League for? Might as well kick all them off and change the title to "Justice Flash of America". That's the inverse of what you're suggesting. You think that just because Batman gets written poorly at times he doesnt belong on the team. What that actually means is the book needs a new writer, not a new roster.

Blame bad writing on the writers. Batman is as useful or as useless as the writer makes him. A good writer plays to the character's strengths and skills without making anyone else look bad and enhances the narrative of the story. A bad writer does the opposite. Where's the real problem?

[DochaDocha]

Psst:

They weren't 'Justice League stories'

It's better that it happened in his own books, but only kind of better instead of absolutely permissible. You can't have a Flash book in which Flash busts all of Gotham's villains in one day. That's just undermining another DC license (in this case, the one that's currently most valuable).

[LifeIsILL]

well Superman and Wonder Woman has beaten Joker in their own books a couple of times....

And in the New 52 Justice League International book Batman does absolutely nothing other than getting captured/pummeled.

[DochaDocha]

well Superman and Wonder Woman has beaten Joker in their own books a couple of times....

It all depends on the story specifics. Obviously, it shouldn't be a fist fight between Supes or Wondy vs. Joker, because that would be lame. However, you can have a fun-filled story such as "Emperor Joker," one of my favorite stories from that era, in which Joker poses a troublesome nut to crack for Superman. Most of it, I felt, fell in the realm of plausibility. We can all agree that Mr. Mxyzptlk was a gullible buffoon, which is why Superman can trick him every 90 days. With all of Mxy's powers, Joker is going to be a villain Superman can't just rely on his powers to defeat. In that specific instance, that's a good Superman vs. Joker story.

(As an aside, I probably could've done without the part where Superman took on Batman's destructive memories to make him functional again. Consider that a counterexample to the claim that Batman is always made to look superior to his JL fellows.)

[adkal]

It all depends on the story specifics. Obviously, it shouldn't be a fist fight between Supes or Wondy vs. Joker, because that would be lame. However, you can have a fun-filled story such as "Emperor Joker," one of my favorite stories from that era, in which Joker poses a troublesome nut to crack for Superman. Most of it, I felt, fell in the realm of plausibility. We can all agree that Mr. Mxyzptlk was a gullible buffoon, which is why Superman can trick him every 90 days. With all of Mxy's powers, Joker is going to be a villain Superman can't just rely on his powers to defeat. In that specific instance, that's a good Superman vs. Joker story.

One of my favourites, too

(As an aside, I probably could've done without the part where Superman took on Batman's destructive memories to make him functional again. Consider that a counterexample to the claim that Batman is always made to look superior to his JL fellows.)

But then you can counter that with Batman being the one (after J'onn failed, I think) to be able to push Superman up and through the overwhelming depression imposed and induced on and in him by Maggedon.

...or Superman tearing his containment suit open and committing suicide...

Personally, I quite liked Kal being willing and able to shoulder those - and it's a shame we never saw Bruce's warning bear fruit when he learned about it.

[adkal]

It's better that it happened in his own books, but only kind of better instead of absolutely permissible. You can't have a Flash book in which Flash busts all of Gotham's villains in one day. That's just undermining another DC license (in this case, the one that's currently most valuable).

I understand where you're coming from, but it could be done...and you could, for example, kind of have it as a 'one time' thing and perhaps with the rest of the Speed-Gang - the old 'in honour of the fallen', for instance - only to have the Gotham-crew keep their guard up after that. (along with the 'Gotham doesn't work that way and the resolution can only ever be temporary').

[Vanguard-01]

It all depends on the story specifics. Obviously, it shouldn't be a fist fight between Supes or Wondy vs. Joker, because that would be lame. However, you can have a fun-filled story such as "Emperor Joker," one of my favorite stories from that era, in which Joker poses a troublesome nut to crack for Superman. Most of it, I felt, fell in the realm of plausibility. We can all agree that Mr. Mxyzptlk was a gullible buffoon, which is why Superman can trick him every 90 days. With all of Mxy's powers, Joker is going to be a villain Superman can't just rely on his powers to defeat. In that specific instance, that's a good Superman vs. Joker story.

(As an aside, I probably could've done without the part where Superman took on Batman's destructive memories to make him functional again. Consider that a counterexample to the claim that Batman is always made to look superior to his JL fellows.)

And Wonder Woman's defeat of the Joker also had nothing to do with her strength and speed. She called upon the god Pan to teach her the ways of madness, which allowed her to overcome Joker's toxin and stop him. She beat Joker by "out-crazying" him.

Also? That whole story was another example of a Batman villain being exaggerated in order to let him be a threat to a much more powerful hero. Diana's one of the most powerful heroes in the DCU. Joker Venom should have no effect on her, unless it was somehow augmented by magic or something. I don't believe that was the case in this story.

[DochaDocha]

But then you can counter that with Batman being the one (after J'onn failed, I think) to be able to push Superman up and through the overwhelming depression imposed and induced on and in him by Maggedon.

...or Superman tearing his containment suit open and committing suicide...

Personally, I quite liked Kal being willing and able to shoulder those - and it's a shame we never saw Bruce's warning bear fruit when he learned about it.

I guess it's okay if it's a cycle of tit-for-tat, but in isolation, it doesn't seem ideal to me.

EDIT: High amplitude tit-for-tat cycles aren't quite ideal, either. They're justifiable if the characters don't get a proper balance across titles and continuity, but it can get pretty ugly.

[dangleo61288]

And Wonder Woman's defeat of the Joker also had nothing to do with her strength and speed. She called upon the god Pan to teach her the ways of madness, which allowed her to overcome Joker's toxin and stop him. She beat Joker by "out-crazying" him.

Also? That whole story was another example of a Batman villain being exaggerated in order to let him be a threat to a much more powerful hero. Diana's one of the most powerful heroes in the DCU. Joker Venom should have no effect on her, unless it was somehow augmented by magic or something. I don't believe that was the case in this story.

Not that much. The Joker can easily be a threat to them on a psychological level. He is his most dangerous when playing mind games which SM and WW are vulnerable . The Joker is also cunning and is resourceful. Look at the DCau team up, Joker got kryptonite, set up a trap for Superman. Superman arrived in a lead suit to protect himself but Joker used acid.
Also other Bat-villains like Ra's or the Court of Owls can be a threat.

[Vanguard-01]

Not that much. The Joker can easily be a threat to them on a psychological level. He is his most dangerous when playing mind games which SM and WW are vulnerable . The Joker is also cunning and is resourceful. Look at the DCau team up, Joker got kryptonite, set up a trap for Superman. Superman arrived in a lead suit to protect himself but Joker used acid.
Also other Bat-villains like Ra's or the Court of Owls can be a threat.

Joker drove Diana crazy with his run-of-the-mill Joker Venom. Diana is highly resistant to toxins. That should never have worked.

DCAU? If Superman had been written properly, he would've seen Joker reaching for his lapel flower and would've seen the acid coming in more than enough time to deal with it before it ate his suit. That was more PIS.

The only time Joker has ever been a threat to Superman or Wonder Woman was when he played "mind games" with Superman in Injustice. Aside from the unfathomable question of how Joker can come up with drugs that actually work on Superman, Joker did very little to Superman directly. He's perfectly capable of kidnapping Lois. He's perfectly capable of getting his hands on a nuke and placing it in Metropolis. If he could, somehow get Superman to mistake Lois for Doomsday? Presto! That works. Then it wasn't Joker doing anything other than hitting Superman where he's most vulnerable: his compassion.

Ra's doesn't have a damn thing that Superman or Diana need to fear. That goes triple for the Court of Lameness.

[DochaDocha]

Not that much. The Joker can easily be a threat to them on a psychological level. He is his most dangerous when playing mind games which SM and WW are vulnerable . The Joker is also cunning and is resourceful. Look at the DCau team up, Joker got kryptonite, set up a trap for Superman. Superman arrived in a lead suit to protect himself but Joker used acid.
Also other Bat-villains like Ra's or the Court of Owls can be a threat.

The Joker's diabolical mind is one thing, but I don't think most stories give pragmatic reasons for him to have some of the resources necessary to challenge the JL members, and really, much of the time I don't think he should have the resources to challenge Batman, either.

I have mixed feelings about the lead suit in the DCAU. If it happened once, sure, but I think almost every time he put on a suit to protect himself, it got destroyed. Seeing the suit pretty much became a visual/plot hint to the viewer that yes, Virginia, that suit is going to get wrecked and Superman is going to get exposed to the harm anyway.