As Wonder Woman fans, do you think Batman is a nuisance in the Justice League ?

[DochaDocha]

Well, The True Detective, it makes you feel any better, I don't like Green Arrow, and I wish there were more comics in which Batman kicked his butt from Gotham to Albuquerque.

Also, I'm amused that this thread keeps popping up in different forums.

[hellacre]

Writing him within his limitations makes him worthless on the team. Even with everything people might say, the League together can do everything he can except better, EVERYTHING! Now look, I like Batman, he's probably my favorite character, but you can't write him on the League without knocking the others down, you just can't. At best he should either go back to Inc or lead a secret, covert Justice League team ala Secret Avengers that can go past the red tape holding the others back and get stuff done the public team can't.

Geoff probably writes as good a Batman as we can get in the League right now in the sense he's not Batgod. But we still get a very Batman centric arc from since Forever Evil to now. SM and WW are around because they survive the virus but before that you got to feel sorry for the rest of the JL like Aquaman and GL and Flash and Shazam. They are like background noise while Batman and Lex dominated the books for months on end.

I think Batman being the oldest and most experienced of the team is the way it can work. Maybe like what the movie verse is aiming at with a more world weary and in his 40ties. Contributing via strategy and resources and maybe actual wisdom. And that would mean less behaving like a jerk and this fallacy of "I work alone". (Because he does not. He's got a string of wards and sidekicks) He's been through a a lot and got a kid, he should have a perspective that is useful to this younger team. Batman could be the elder brother/ mentor on the team actually and it would work very well. The moments he shares with Superman where he actually is a nice guy is so refreshing ( as in Soule's SM/WW) to read than when he is disdainful or trying to one up him but they like to go with the paranoid loner who secretly shafts his friends which makes it extra annoying . Last canon I often wondered why anyone would put up and even work with him. In reality he'd be kicked out but he's money maker in DC so he has to be in it. Let's not kid ourselves DC would take Batman off the JL. He is an iconic part of that team. They need to strike a better balance and Geoff Johns is doing a bit better than what we had before. Snyder and the other Batman writers...well they keeping up with the tradition that he is superior even by hook or crook.

[ekrolo2]

I agree that Geoff manages to write him pretty well on the team without resorting to making him BatGod though this has earned him a lot of crap from the big Batman fans. Although on the topic of Snyder I am totally fine with Batman beating the League in his own book cause he's kind of the star of it. I'd be fine if Wondie or Aquaman or Flash did it in their respective titles too. Now if the End Game battle happened in the Justice League book that would've been a total piss take.

[hellacre]

I suspect it's because non-Batman fans are annoyed that only one side of the coin is shown.

Where is the story where a mind-controlled Batman devotes all of his intellect and resources towards killing Wonder Woman, only to have her overcome contingency plan after contingency plan?

One where she counters the Anti-Lasso with the Lasso of Truth, a mecha Batsuit gets carved up by an atom splitting sword, razor-sharp batarangs blocked by indestructible bracelets, well placed explosives dodged with super-speed, ice of freeze guns yielding to super-strength, Joker venom and Scarecrow toxins ineffective against "divine blood", turning cave-bats against their owner.

Methodically countering his offensive tactics while slowly peeling away his defensive measures until he finally realizes how badly he's miscalculated before she wraps the Lasso around him and breaks the mind-control.

If writers insist on pretending that Batman with prep is a credible threat to the likes of Wonder Woman, let alone the League, then they can also pretend that overcoming Batman with prep is an impressive achievement.

Exactly! And as Lex has proven you don't need powers to become a megalomaniac. So where is our story where Batman manipulates the world into being against the heroes because he's lost it? Where is our story Batman finally breaking and caving into rage over the death of one love interest and go on a killing spree? Where is our story where Superman and Wonder Woman and some members of the League have to go up against other heroes led by Batman but this time he is on the villainous side? Batman if he is such a great human hero can very well be a dangerous man in an AU. Worse than Lex. But we don't get that, do we? (Earth 3 doesn't count since they all bad)

It's rubbed in the faces of Superman and Wonder Woman fans recently that they are just a step away from being evil and taking over the world. That's another thing that miffs me a lot. No account to the fact that they are possibly two of the most compassionate and more grounded heroes while Bat does walk a fine line but it's always them that gets pushed over the edge in AU.

[gwhh]

Good point! You ever notice that Batman never watches NON powered super heroes? Is he watching Lex Lutor or harry Osborn. I think he a little jealous of there powers they have and he just a regular fellow with money.

[Vanguard-01]

Exactly! And as Lex has proven you don't need powers to become a megalomaniac. So where is our story where Batman manipulates the world into being against the heroes because he's lost it? Where is our story Batman finally breaking and caving into rage over the death of one love interest and go on a killing spree? Where is our story where Superman and Wonder Woman and some members of the League have to go up against other heroes led by Batman but this time he is on the villainous side? Batman if he is such a great human hero can very well be a dangerous man in an AU. Worse than Lex. But we don't get that, do we? (Earth 3 doesn't count since they all bad)

It's rubbed in the faces of Superman and Wonder Woman fans recently that they are just a step away from being evil and taking over the world. That's another thing that miffs me a lot. No account to the fact that they are possibly two of the most compassionate and more grounded heroes while Bat does walk a fine line but it's always them that gets pushed over the edge in AU.

This. So much this.

You want to talk about balance? Batman ALWAYS gets to be the good guy in any "Justice Leaguer goes bad" story. Why not a "Batman goes bad story?" Why does he ALWAYS get to be the righteous guy who gets to pass judgment on everyone else?

Seriously. Tower of Babel was a perfect example of what a "Batman goes bad" story could look like. Batman has all these elaborate plans to defeat the Justice League? Well, what happens if he ever goes bad (or gets mind controlled/possessed) and decides to use his vaunted "prep time" to take down the League? With his mastery of stealth and tactics, he could remove a good chunk of the League from the board before they even realized who was attacking them.

Why doesn't DC do this? Lax pointed it out: prep time. Batman's prep time has been so hyped up over the decades that it has gotten to the point where "prep time" has become synonymous with "Batman wins." If DC ever did a Batman turns his prep time powers against the rest of the League, they're convinced that Batman would just straight up win that fight.

Snyder's story was a prime example of that. Batman rendered the rest of the League worthless with prep time. A "Batman goes bad" story would pretty much end the same way. Thus? Batman is always written as incorruptible and morally superior to every other Leaguer, or else that's pretty much the end of the League.

[DochaDocha]

"Tower of Babel," IMO, is a story about Batman's colossal eff up. There's a lot of ethical ambiguity as to whether it's okay for Batman to keep files on the JL members, analyzing their weaknesses, actually writing out concrete plans to neutralize them, and then failing to safeguard them sufficiently. The ethical ambiguity continues through the end of the collected edition, when the League goes to a vote, and ultimately decides that they are better off without the guy. I find the story has some hokey elements, particularly some of the protocols Batman devised to neutralize the Justice League. I theorized that Waid started out with a story realizing Supes has Kryptonite, Aquaman needs water, Martian Manhunter is weak against fire, Green Lantern needs a ring, and Plastic Man is kind of like rubber, so he came up with logical ways to overcome their powers, but then realized there's nothing convenient to beat Flash or Wonder Woman, and therefore just threw out some ideas and hoped they worked. Overall, though, I think the theme of the story is pretty solid, and this is not a "Bat-god" story. It fits the profile of the character. It's only Bat-god when certain fans badly misinterpret it and point to the story as an incidence in which Batman singlehandedly beat the Justice League. Despite the flaws in execution, this story is a keeper, and I proudly display it on my bookshelf. It reminds us that Batman is a cunning and resourceful SOB, which makes him a valuable member of the JL, but it also shows that Batman really doesn't know everything, and again it's a royal screw up, and Batman pays the price.

I liked the story enough so that when the Justice League cartoon episode "Starcrossed" aired (I should say "aired overseas," because I remember quite well how screwy the CN scheduling was so all of us State-side downloaded the episode months in advance, but that's a different story ), I was disappointed how they took such an awesome Batman story, and gave it to my least favorite character on the show, bloody Hawkgirl. I mean, it's clearly not a 1:1 analogous story to the original, but all the main plot points are there. The team felt betrayed, and was conflicted about how to deal with someone whom they trusted so much conspired against them. To the episode's credit, it's actually an emotionally deeper story than "Tower of Babel," but I felt like a fan-favorite Batman story got appropriated for a far lesser character.

However, be careful of what you wish for. I wanted the "Tower of Babel" story to remain a Batman story, and surely enough, eight years after "Starcrossed," "Babel" got adapted to a movie, Justice League: Doom. I think it does various things well, but it absolutely removes the whole ambiguity about whether or not Batman was justified in his actions. He just says the team is stupid not to see the value in what he did, he didn't need to justify it, and if they had a problem then screw them. I mean, the ending puts all the blame on the Justice League members who don't have butlers. Unbe-freaking-lievable. I think some of the action bits are hokier than the original story, in that all of the villains just assume the JL members are going to die and don't actually finish the job, but it's mostly good, and in the climax we get to see the team work together instead of just sitting back and waiting for Batman to do something (Crisis on Two Earths), or think of something (Throne of Atlantis). It also, IMO, tries to make up for the lacking Regan scene from All-Star Superman, and put a very similar one in place for this movie, albeit one that's not nearly as emotionally affective. However, the ending does the movie a huge disservice and removes one of the key themes of the original that makes it interesting, and IMO I would lump it as another Bat-god story.

EDIT: Despite excoriating Doom's ending, I should point out, however, that I did like the very last scene when Superman chatted with Batman. I always liked the gesture of Superman's giving Batman Kryptonite. It puts Superman in a good light, as I interpreted that Superman was there to support his friend in his well-intentioned efforts, as well as putting faith in his abilities. Hooray World's Finest.

[Javier Velasco]

Superman is the Man of Steel
Wonder Woman is the Amazing Amazon
The Flash is the Fastest Man Alive
Aquaman is the King of the Seven Seas

Batman is arguably the most popular hero of the bunch these days and yet I would bet that most new Bat fans don't know that he is supposed to be... the World's Greatest Detective. He certainly isn't that in his movies because as far as I know he has never had to do any detective work. Punch people, yes. But how many crimes has he actually SOLVED?

I am not a huge Batfan, but I think he has a place in the League.

Not as the senior member.
Not as the smartest person on the team.
Not as the person who develops strategies.

But as the World's Greatest Detective. He should rarely be shown fighting along side of Superman and Wonder Woman. Most of the time, he should be used as Oracle was in Morrisson's JLA. Usually present, but not on the frontlines, offering deductions on information given to him by people with more knowledge in particular fields (like Cyborg or Atom).

[ekrolo2]

Max Landis' Superman two parter is a good example of Batman being a bad guy by letting Joker loose on Metropolis just to "test" Superman. Needless to say he gets put in his place promptly by Supes for pulling this kind of stuff. Its not much but its a good example of a well done Batman screw up story along with Tower of Babel.

"Tower of Babel," IMO, is a story about Batman's colossal eff up. There's a lot of ethical ambiguity as to whether it's okay for Batman to keep files on the JL members, analyzing their weaknesses, actually writing out concrete plans to neutralize them, and then failing to safeguard them sufficiently. The ethical ambiguity continues through the end of the collected edition, when the League goes to a vote, and ultimately decides that they are better off without the guy. I find the story has some hokey elements, particularly some of the protocols Batman devised to neutralize the Justice League. I theorized that Waid started out with a story realizing Supes has Kryptonite, Aquaman needs water, Martian Manhunter is weak against fire, Green Lantern needs a ring, and Plastic Man is kind of like rubber, so he came up with logical ways to overcome their powers, but then realized there's nothing convenient to beat Flash or Wonder Woman, and therefore just threw out some ideas and hoped they worked. Overall, though, I think the theme of the story is pretty solid, and this is not a "Bat-god" story. It fits the profile of the character. It's only Bat-god when certain fans badly misinterpret it and point to the story as an incidence in which Batman singlehandedly beat the Justice League. Despite the flaws in execution, this story is a keeper, and I proudly display it on my bookshelf. It reminds us that Batman is a cunning and resourceful SOB, which makes him a valuable member of the JL, but it also shows that Batman really doesn't know everything, and again it's a royal screw up, and Batman pays the price.

I liked the story enough so that when the Justice League cartoon episode "Starcrossed" aired (I should say "aired overseas," because I remember quite well how screwy the CN scheduling was so all of us State-side downloaded the episode months in advance, but that's a different story ), I was disappointed how they took such an awesome Batman story, and gave it to my least favorite character on the show, bloody Hawkgirl. I mean, it's clearly not a 1:1 analogous story to the original, but all the main plot points are there. The team felt betrayed, and was conflicted about how to deal with someone whom they trusted so much conspired against them. To the episode's credit, it's actually an emotionally deeper story than "Tower of Babel," but I felt like a fan-favorite Batman story got appropriated for a far lesser character.

However, be careful of what you wish for. I wanted the "Tower of Babel" story to remain a Batman story, and surely enough, eight years after "Starcrossed," "Babel" got adapted to a movie, Justice League: Doom. I think it does various things well, but it absolutely removes the whole ambiguity about whether or not Batman was justified in his actions. He just says the team is stupid not to see the value in what he did, he didn't need to justify it, and if they had a problem then screw them. I mean, the ending puts all the blame on the Justice League members who don't have butlers. Unbe-freaking-lievable. I think some of the action bits are hokier than the original story, in that all of the villains just assume the JL members are going to die and don't actually finish the job, but it's mostly good, and in the climax we get to see the team work together instead of just sitting back and waiting for Batman to do something (Crisis on Two Earths), or think of something (Throne of Atlantis). It also, IMO, tries to make up for the lacking Regan scene from All-Star Superman, and put a very similar one in place for this movie, albeit one that's not nearly as emotionally affective. However, the ending does the movie a huge disservice and removes one of the key themes of the original that makes it interesting, and IMO I would lump it as another Bat-god story.

EDIT: Despite excoriating Doom's ending, I should point out, however, that I did like the very last scene when Superman chatted with Batman. I always liked the gesture of Superman's giving Batman Kryptonite. It puts Superman in a good light, as I interpreted that Superman was there to support his friend in his well-intentioned efforts, as well as putting faith in his abilities. Hooray World's Finest.

I don't think Starcrossed was supposed to be an analogue of Tower of Babel (I've never heard it stated as such) but I do think Batman having contingencies should've been done in DCAU. Especially since that Batman is a total scumbag a**hole who'd totally pull that kind of stunt off.

[SiegePerilous02]

Superman is the Man of Steel
Wonder Woman is the Amazing Amazon
The Flash is the Fastest Man Alive
Aquaman is the King of the Seven Seas

Batman is arguably the most popular hero of the bunch these days and yet I would bet that most new Bat fans don't know that he is supposed to be... the World's Greatest Detective. He certainly isn't that in his movies because as far as I know he has never had to do any detective work. Punch people, yes. But how many crimes has he actually SOLVED?

I am not a huge Batfan, but I think he has a place in the League.

Not as the senior member.
Not as the smartest person on the team.
Not as the person who develops strategies.

But as the World's Greatest Detective. He should rarely be shown fighting along side of Superman and Wonder Woman. Most of the time, he should be used as Oracle was in Morrisson's JLA. Usually present, but not on the frontlines, offering deductions on information given to him by people with more knowledge in particular fields (like Cyborg or Atom).

This is the ideal solution. It keeps him present, playing up to his ideal attributes as a character while not constantly upstaging the others. It's honestly a better solution than getting rid of him entirely. The League wouldn't be complete without him, and there's no getting around that. Neither the Outsiders or Batman INC are anywhere near as important to the comics world as the League is, so dropping him out of the main group for either of those isn't realistic.

[Agent Z]

"Tower of Babel," IMO, is a story about Batman's colossal eff up. There's a lot of ethical ambiguity as to whether it's okay for Batman to keep files on the JL members, analyzing their weaknesses, actually writing out concrete plans to neutralize them, and then failing to safeguard them sufficiently. The ethical ambiguity continues through the end of the collected edition, when the League goes to a vote, and ultimately decides that they are better off without the guy. I find the story has some hokey elements, particularly some of the protocols Batman devised to neutralize the Justice League. I theorized that Waid started out with a story realizing Supes has Kryptonite, Aquaman needs water, Martian Manhunter is weak against fire, Green Lantern needs a ring, and Plastic Man is kind of like rubber, so he came up with logical ways to overcome their powers, but then realized there's nothing convenient to beat Flash or Wonder Woman, and therefore just threw out some ideas and hoped they worked. Overall, though, I think the theme of the story is pretty solid, and this is not a "Bat-god" story. It fits the profile of the character. It's only Bat-god when certain fans badly misinterpret it and point to the story as an incidence in which Batman singlehandedly beat the Justice League. Despite the flaws in execution, this story is a keeper, and I proudly display it on my bookshelf. It reminds us that Batman is a cunning and resourceful SOB, which makes him a valuable member of the JL, but it also shows that Batman really doesn't know everything, and again it's a royal screw up, and Batman pays the price.

I liked the story enough so that when the Justice League cartoon episode "Starcrossed" aired (I should say "aired overseas," because I remember quite well how screwy the CN scheduling was so all of us State-side downloaded the episode months in advance, but that's a different story ), I was disappointed how they took such an awesome Batman story, and gave it to my least favorite character on the show, bloody Hawkgirl. I mean, it's clearly not a 1:1 analogous story to the original, but all the main plot points are there. The team felt betrayed, and was conflicted about how to deal with someone whom they trusted so much conspired against them. To the episode's credit, it's actually an emotionally deeper story than "Tower of Babel," but I felt like a fan-favorite Batman story got appropriated for a far lesser character.

However, be careful of what you wish for. I wanted the "Tower of Babel" story to remain a Batman story, and surely enough, eight years after "Starcrossed," "Babel" got adapted to a movie, Justice League: Doom. I think it does various things well, but it absolutely removes the whole ambiguity about whether or not Batman was justified in his actions. He just says the team is stupid not to see the value in what he did, he didn't need to justify it, and if they had a problem then screw them. I mean, the ending puts all the blame on the Justice League members who don't have butlers. Unbe-freaking-lievable. I think some of the action bits are hokier than the original story, in that all of the villains just assume the JL members are going to die and don't actually finish the job, but it's mostly good, and in the climax we get to see the team work together instead of just sitting back and waiting for Batman to do something (Crisis on Two Earths), or think of something (Throne of Atlantis). It also, IMO, tries to make up for the lacking Regan scene from All-Star Superman, and put a very similar one in place for this movie, albeit one that's not nearly as emotionally affective. However, the ending does the movie a huge disservice and removes one of the key themes of the original that makes it interesting, and IMO I would lump it as another Bat-god story.

EDIT: Despite excoriating Doom's ending, I should point out, however, that I did like the very last scene when Superman chatted with Batman. I always liked the gesture of Superman's giving Batman Kryptonite. It puts Superman in a good light, as I interpreted that Superman was there to support his friend in his well-intentioned efforts, as well as putting faith in his abilities. Hooray World's Finest.

And then Identity Crisis happened and it was retconned that Bruce was only paranoid because of the League's shady practices.

[Blacksun]

Not really. Superman fits a whole lot better because with their similar power sets and levels of foes, they can seamlessly have adventures together without having to dumb anything down. You have to dumb a lot down to make Batman work in either of their worlds. Its only acceptable with Superman because of the strong history behind their friendship. Allowances are willing to be given for a team-up as illustrious as theirs. Same with for example GL and GA. There's no such history between Batman and WW to validate even bothering. Speaking of Ollie, you could get a lot more mileage pairing Batman's family up with the Green Arrow family more often.

similar power levels is exatcly the reason superman is not suited to WW. he will just steal the spotlight from WW. different power levels doesn't even make sense with team ups like batman and superman, it doesn't hold any truth.
Just build story, because pre new 52, batman and ww had a bunch of story between them. not a good justificative, more like "I don't like them so they shouldn't team up'

I agree that Geoff manages to write him pretty well on the team without resorting to making him BatGod though this has earned him a lot of crap from the big Batman fans. Although on the topic of Snyder I am totally fine with Batman beating the League in his own book cause he's kind of the star of it. I'd be fine if Wondie or Aquaman or Flash did it in their respective titles too. Now if the End Game battle happened in the Justice League book that would've been a total piss take.

well johns write a bad batman, but he got better since luthor entered the league. the contigency plans that weren't plans, good things that Snyder corrected that. Most of batman fans doesn't like johns because hal just punched batman, not using the ring and also batman earth one. last issue of JL ww and superman were struggling with a meta than batman gained powers and resolved that. I wouldn't call that a good batman writing

[Sacred Knight]

Flawed logic. Superman nor anyone else doesn't automatically "steal spotlight" from Wonder Woman just because of power levels. Its a concentrated effort on the writer if they want to do that. Its not automatic. Batman has stolen the spotlight from team books for over a decade and he doesn't have any special powers. Why? Because writers wanted him to. That's all there is to it. There's nothing that says you can't write two similarly powered characters in a balanced manner. Outside of Doomed, SM/WW is a good example of that, but that's talking to a wall because of the flailing about that still goes on trying to perpetuate that Superman dominates there too.

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

This is the ideal solution. It keeps him present, playing up to his ideal attributes as a character while not constantly upstaging the others. It's honestly a better solution than getting rid of him entirely. The League wouldn't be complete without him, and there's no getting around that. Neither the Outsiders or Batman INC are anywhere near as important to the comics world as the League is, so dropping him out of the main group for either of those isn't realistic.

First, the league is complete without Batman. The remaining members got it all covered. Superman being the leader. Green Lantern and the Flash being the detectives. Superman and Cyborg working on tech stuffs. Wonder Woman being the tactician/battlefield leader. Superman and Wonder Woman being the powerhouses. Aquaman covering for all the Justice League expenses. So as you can read no need for Batman under these circumstances. Batman is wasting his time and the readers time being on the Justice League. Plain and simple.

Second, the Outsiders and Batman Incorporated may be not as important as the Justice League in the DC universe but they are more important to the Batman mythos then the Justice League for Batman.

Third, removing Batman from the Justice League solves all the problems. No more Batman insulting and humiliating his teammates. No more Batgod. No more Batman having plans to take down the Justice League. Batman out of the Justice League is the only way to go. Oh and restarting Batman Inc. Lest not forget about this.

[Blacksun]

superman and ww have similar powers, it's hard for them have distinctive ways to show up their unique powers/skills. smww book suffers from that, already saw many ww fans complaining about the imbalance of the comic.
Batman is a character that serves many genres, he knows about mythology, tech, tactician. The team up issue on batman & robin was good, and ww team up with batwoman was even better. Dc should try different things