Are the sidekicks and villains more popular than Batman himself?

[The True Detective]

Sometimes looking at this forum it seems the supporting characters and villains are talked about and liked MUCH more than Bruce himself. Sometimes I think if they got rid of him and just renamed the franchise "Gotham" people here would shrug and go about their day. Seriously Dick Grayson is definitely the most popular character on this board followed by Joker, Harley and then Bruce. I'm the opposite of most here outside of Batman and Joker I'm pretty indifferent towards the other Batverse characters and actually think his rogues get hugely overrated simply because the Joker is one of them. Sometimes I even enjoy Batman in JL stories more than one's where he's in Gotham. A lot of the times I feel like writers focus more on the sidekicks and villains to the point where Bruce is like a bystander in his own series. So in a way I can understand if the villains and sidekicks can be more popular since they get more character development than he gets in his own books. Say what you will about "BatGod" in JL books but at least he's not just largely made into a living prop at times.

I'm just curious for your responses because no other franchise is like this. Supergirl, Superboy, Jimmy Olsen, Lois, etc. are not more beloved by Superman fans than Superman is. No Spider-Man villains or supporting character is more popular than Spider-Man, Wonder Woman is the most popular Wonder Woman character.

So any other Batfan here whose favorite character is Bruce Wayne?

[Tupiaz]

Yes, you are the only one who favourite character is Batman...

PS. Batman's supporting characters and especially his villains is used as a psychological key to open Bruce's mind and tell the story. Even though the story may not feel Batman centric a lot of the themes and aspect of the story will reflect back on Batman whatever they are explicit or implicit.

[The True Detective]

Yes, you are the only one who favourite character is Batman...

PS. Batman's supporting characters and especially his villains is used as a psychological key to open Bruce's mind and tell the story. Even though the story may not feel Batman centric a lot of the themes and aspect of the story will reflect back on Batman whatever they are explicit or implicit.

I know my question may seem a little over dramatic and I know I'm not the only one whose favorite character is Bruce but it sure does feel like it at times. Whenever I look at this forum a Grayson thread is always at the top without fail. It's just ironic that people feel JL stories are too Batcentric whereas the stories in his own books more times than not are not Batcentric. I think if Bruce was moved to another franchise and was replaced as the lead by Dick not many here would care all that much.

[Tupiaz]

I know my question may seem a little over dramatic and I know I'm not the only one whose favorite character is Bruce but it sure does feel like it at times. Whenever I look at this forum a Grayson thread is always at the top without fail. It's just ironic that people feel JL stories are too Batcentric whereas the stories in his own books more times than not are not Batcentric. I think if Bruce was moved to another franchise and was replaced as the lead by Dick not many here would care all that much.

That Bruce was brought back and Dick wasn't kept as a Batman disprove this. That many feels that the best Batman stories are told when Batman is put in the background is not the same as they doesn't want Bruce as Batman.

[quinnzel]

Sometimes looking at this forum it seems the supporting characters and villains are talked about and liked MUCH more than Bruce himself. Sometimes I think if they got rid of him and just renamed the franchise "Gotham" people here would shrug and go about their day. Seriously Dick Grayson is definitely the most popular character on this board followed by Joker, Harley and then Bruce. I'm the opposite of most here outside of Batman and Joker I'm pretty indifferent towards the other Batverse characters and actually think his rogues get hugely overrated simply because the Joker is one of them. Sometimes I even enjoy Batman in JL stories more than one's where he's in Gotham. A lot of the times I feel like writers focus more on the sidekicks and villains to the point where Bruce is like a bystander in his own series. So in a way I can understand if the villains and sidekicks can be more popular since they get more character development than he gets in his own books. Say what you will about "BatGod" in JL books but at least he's not just largely made into a living prop at times.

I'm just curious for your responses because no other franchise is like this. Supergirl, Superboy, Jimmy Olsen, Lois, etc. are not more beloved by Superman fans than Superman is. No Spider-Man villains or supporting character is more popular than Spider-Man, Wonder Woman is the most popular Wonder Woman character.

So any other Batfan here whose favorite character is Bruce Wayne?

I get where you're coming from but the thing to remember is none of the other Bat characters would be nearly as interesting without Batman. They all contribute to Batman's complexity in one form or another. That's one of the things I love the most about the Batman universe-- it's a very complex psychological animal and all of the characters sort of play off of one another.

My point is, while Batman may not be everyone's favorite part of the entire Batman universe, I don't think anyone is disputing his importance to it. What I've always enjoyed about the Batman universe is that Bruce is not the center of it all the time, nor does he need or have to be. Other characters have chances to step up and be in the limelight as well, and many times it's the villains who are showcased and not even the heroes themselves. That's something unique about Batman and I think it works (for the most part) beautifully.

[The True Detective]

That Bruce was brought back and Dick wasn't kept as a Batman disprove this. That many feels that the best Batman stories are told when Batman is put in the background is not the same as they doesn't want Bruce as Batman.

True but there are plenty of people who miss DickBats and prefer him as Batman to Bruce. And I don't get how the best Batman stories can be where he is in the background. As the main character of the franchise he should never be in the background. I'm not saying there can't be stories that focus on other characters from time to time but when it gets to the point where people's favorite stories almost always involve other characters it's definitely strange. Year One was more about Jim than Bruce and people love it a lot of people prefer DickBats, a lot of people admit to reading Batbooks because of the villains, no other hero has these kind of problems. No one ever says "I like so and so Spider-Man story because the Green Goblin was so great in it, and so were Aunt May and MJ! Oh yeah I guess Peter was ok in the background there..." A Spider-Man story is seen as great because of him, same thing with Superman, Wonder Woman, Daredevil, etc with Batman a lot of people here seem to think what makes the stories great is the characters around him.This is why I ask if I'm the only one here for Bruce first and foremost. Like I said other than Batman and Joker I could take or leave the rest of the Batverse and think what makes a Batman story great is Batman himself period.

[K. Jones]

Batman's a cool dude. But he's made effortlessly cooler by having Dick Grayson standing next to him.

I read all Batman's stories so clearly he's very high in my esteem. I've been reading some old JLA stuff lately and he's definitely always my favorite member of the team, and this considering that I like Aquaman better than Batman and hold Superman in at least as high regard as Batman. But Batman is like a scene-stealer in JLA books and flourishes in those scenarios.

I also like every "version" of Batman, practically, I like playing as Batman. I read Batman's voice aloud when I read in my really passable Conroy impression. I'd rather learn more about his everyday life and human side than get any exposition whatsoever about the B.S. psychology his villains (writers) are claiming motivates them this week.

So perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I like BRUCE a lot."

[bat1987]

Sometimes looking at this forum it seems the supporting characters and villains are talked about and liked MUCH more than Bruce himself. Sometimes I think if they got rid of him and just renamed the franchise "Gotham" people here would shrug and go about their day. Seriously Dick Grayson is definitely the most popular character on this board followed by Joker, Harley and then Bruce. I'm the opposite of most here outside of Batman and Joker I'm pretty indifferent towards the other Batverse characters and actually think his rogues get hugely overrated simply because the Joker is one of them. Sometimes I even enjoy Batman in JL stories more than one's where he's in Gotham. A lot of the times I feel like writers focus more on the sidekicks and villains to the point where Bruce is like a bystander in his own series. So in a way I can understand if the villains and sidekicks can be more popular since they get more character development than he gets in his own books. Say what you will about "BatGod" in JL books but at least he's not just largely made into a living prop at times.

I'm just curious for your responses because no other franchise is like this. Supergirl, Superboy, Jimmy Olsen, Lois, etc. are not more beloved by Superman fans than Superman is. No Spider-Man villains or supporting character is more popular than Spider-Man, Wonder Woman is the most popular Wonder Woman character.

So any other Batfan here whose favorite character is Bruce Wayne?

Ofc you're not, Batman is my favorite character by far, and I'm sure its the same for majority of the people here. You could be seeing some of the threads just because the fans of the said character are just more vocal that's all. The fact that you see more Joker threads doesn't necessarily mean he's more popular. You don't see Batman appreciation thread because he doesn't need it, whole forum is dedicated to him lol

There are people who prefer other support characters to him, sure. The reason why you don't see this on the other forums as much is just for one simple reason. They don't have a support cast nearly as developed and successful as Batman's (talking mainly about support cast not villains).

Like others have said, none of these support characters would have existed without Batman.

[sunofdarkchild]

No. Plenty of us like Batman the most. But when a franchise has this many characters it is inevitable that many will prefer a different character over the main one. It happens all the time. How many fans of DBZ have a favorite character other than Goku? How many people prefer Han or Lando to Luke?

Also, with Batman there's no need for an 'appreciation thread' the way there might be for the other characters. The whole forum is a place to discuss Batman. But the lack of an appreciation thread can make it seem like there are fewer fans of Batman specifically around.

[Fuzzy Cactus]

A lot of the times I feel like writers focus more on the sidekicks and villains to the point where Bruce is like a bystander in his own series. So in a way I can understand if the villains and sidekicks can be more popular since they get more character development than he gets in his own books.

Can you name some specific examples? Because I feel like this is rarely the case. In the most of the "essential" Batman stories, Bruce (or Bruce's relationship with a particular character like Jim Gordon or Joker) is the main focus of the story. Rarely do you see someone like Dick or Barbara upstage Bruce. Especially in recent comics, where the sidekicks spend most of their time in their own solo books, and just make occasional cameos in the Batman books.

I'm just curious for your responses because no other franchise is like this. Supergirl, Superboy, Jimmy Olsen, Lois, etc. are not more beloved by Superman fans than Superman is. No Spider-Man villains or supporting character is more popular than Spider-Man, Wonder Woman is the most popular Wonder Woman character.

Well, that's really a case of Batman being such a big franchise that his supporting characters become solo heroes of their own with their own supporting characters, much like Supergirl or the various Spider-Man spinoffs (2099, Spider-Woman, etc). But they're still guest stars when it comes to books with "Batman" or "Detective Comics" in the title. And Bruce is currently the one who stars in four monthly books, and has a significant role in a few others (Justice League, Batman/Superman).

[Abishai100]

This is a real problem, and I'm glad someone is talking about this finally. Maybe it's our modern age of violence-glorification media that is drawing attention away from do-gooders and towards mischief artists and crooks (and villains). It also seems that the Hollywood (USA) adaptations of comic book media find great acting performances only in the villain roles.

One way to approach this problem is to talk about storytelling itself. For example, does the hero Green Arrow (DC Comics) remind us of the social appeal of Robin Hood? Such a question could bring more intellectual interest in our comic book superheroes, especially the socially symbolic ones such as Batman who has the odious task of tackling criminally insane villains who almost always draw empathy away from the Dark Knight and towards themselves. After all, criminal insanity is very complex and sometimes difficult to prosecute.

We just need more good storytelling about the value of heroism:

---------------------

A Dark Knight


"A masked psychopath stalks young American women in London on Valentine’s Day.

A bright young detective working for the British police force decides to tackle the eerie case.

This detective, named Ethan, believes the Valentine killer is a man haunted by the demons of betrayal.

Ethan feels that the Valentine killer is devastating the morale of London, so he decides to create a special pseudo-vigilantism crusade.

Ethan begins to write columns in the London gazette about the value of English pre-schools teaching children the peace-motivation qualities of water-guns, war/violence-themed toys that actually promote alternatives to rage and crime.

Ethan’s weekly column becomes a real success and gains populism notoriety and social popularity.

The Valentine killer notices that this column is raising the morale of London and, one day, follows Ethan home from the police department, sneaks into his apartment, and kills him.

The tragedy is terrible, but the people remember the social value of Ethan’s work with his special water-gun crusade and begin vigilant neighborhood watches to seek out and trap the Valentine killer.

They succeed and the Valentine killer is arrested.

Did Ethan’s heroic work illuminate the modern urbanization-paranoia related artistic demand for vigilantism-inquisition pop literature such as the American comic book Batman (DC Comics)?


Maybe Ethan was Batman…"








Batman: Year One


wayne.jpg

[Agent Z]

This is a real problem, and I'm glad someone is talking about this finally. Maybe it's our modern age of violence-glorification media that is drawing attention away from do-gooders and towards mischief artists and crooks (and villains). It also seems that the Hollywood (USA) adaptations of comic book media find great acting performances only in the villain roles.

One way to approach this problem is to talk about storytelling itself. For example, does the hero Green Arrow (DC Comics) remind us of the social appeal of Robin Hood? Such a question could bring more intellectual interest in our comic book superheroes, especially the socially symbolic ones such as Batman who has the odious task of tackling criminally insane villains who almost always draw empathy away from the Dark Knight and towards themselves. After all, criminal insanity is very complex and sometimes difficult to prosecute.

We just need more good storytelling about the value of heroism:

---------------------

A Dark Knight


"A masked psychopath stalks young American women in London on Valentine’s Day.

A bright young detective working for the British police force decides to tackle the eerie case.

This detective, named Ethan, believes the Valentine killer is a man haunted by the demons of betrayal.

Ethan feels that the Valentine killer is devastating the morale of London, so he decides to create a special pseudo-vigilantism crusade.

Ethan begins to write columns in the London gazette about the value of English pre-schools teaching children the peace-motivation qualities of water-guns, war/violence-themed toys that actually promote alternatives to rage and crime.

Ethan’s weekly column becomes a real success and gains populism notoriety and social popularity.

The Valentine killer notices that this column is raising the morale of London and, one day, follows Ethan home from the police department, sneaks into his apartment, and kills him.

The tragedy is terrible, but the people remember the social value of Ethan’s work with his special water-gun crusade and begin vigilant neighborhood watches to seek out and trap the Valentine killer.

They succeed and the Valentine killer is arrested.

Did Ethan’s heroic work illuminate the modern urbanization-paranoia related artistic demand for vigilantism-inquisition pop literature such as the American comic book Batman (DC Comics)?


Maybe Ethan was Batman…"








Batman: Year One


wayne.jpg

The OP was referring to people liking supporting characters as well as villains.

[Nite-Wing]

For some reason people on this forum tend to dislike Batman and like his supporting characters more
Batman is definitely my fave though and I prioritize him over any of his supporting characters
Its weird how stuff like this happens. I mean you never see people talking about supergirl nonstop on the superman board or you never see cassie fans talking about her all the time on the wonder woman board.

[SiegePerilous02]

It's a bit of a complicated question for me to answer. Bruce, when written as the human being he is (doesn't happen a lot these days, unfortunately) is one of the most complex heroes in fiction. But even then, he can't be successful in a vacuum. His supporting cast and villains strengthen him and as much as he strengthens them. That's because the best of those characters, in addition to being interesting on their own, have interesting psychological/thematic parallels and/or contrasts to Batman. They say something about him, or bounce off of him in interesting ways.

So in short, when it comes to their best written portrayals, I'd say I love Bruce, the classic rogues and iconic supporting characters like Gordon, Alfred, Dick, Barbara, etc in equal measure. The rest of the sidekicks and some of the newer, underdeveloped villains leave me cold in comparison because they don't really synch up with Bruce's character or offer anything unique the way the classics do. Though when it comes to the latter group, I'd be interested if a writer actually succeeds in making me care about the villains as characters beyond "huh, that's kind of a cool design/gimmick, but whatever."

[ABH]

Batman is still my favorite, but that doesn't mean I like or love every story written about him.

Agent Grayson is just a great concept, and it has taken the character and his story in a really interesting direction, so it's got a lot of people excited/talking.