"The Flash Is Not About Tragedy": Wally West Appreciation! (NO NUWALLY BASHING!!!)

[Dred]

I don't know why everyone is going batshit about the cover of Tom King's book featuring Wally.
We still have ZERO idea what the story involves and what characters it will focus on.
Chill out people!!

I'm still hopeful Wally will get his own title after all this is said & done.

We do know Wally will be included as King has tweeted as much. Everything else is speculation and derivation based on Tom King's authorial history.

But you're ignoring the fact that things have been getting better for him. He's been rebuilding his life, slowly, but surely. He's reconnected with many of the most important people in his life. You're picking and choosing to help your argument that his life has been all misery since he's returned when that's not what has come across on page. And there is a difference between failure and something being unresolved. Has he gotten back everything he has lost? No. Is his entire life tragedy, tragedy, tragedy? Also no. Sometimes life is hard, even for The Flash. But that doesn't mean everything is awful and everything is dark and dire. Whether he is a main character or not doesn't change this.

Either way, let's judge the outcome of this storyline when it occurs. Not based on the expectations of what might happen.

The majority of his life, the people who were by his side for his run as The Flash, don't even exist. If you think Wally is the sum of everything he was before 1987 then sure, he's rebuilding his life. But that's not the Wally I'm invested in.

For months on end Titans was about how shitty everything ended up for Wally. This isn't some massive revelation. The only thing since has been Flash War and Perfect Storm, neither the best outlooks for Wally. The only person he's connected with is Iris which was immediately cascaded into Wally hallucinating constantly about his ruined/lost life. These aren't cherry picking anything. If the entirety of the Titans run and what little he's been involved in Flash has been Wally being mistreated, miserable, or worse then what else is there? That one Nightwing cameo he had? What great strides has Wally made? That he has an apartment that someone else is paying for him? Wow, what a big step forward for a grown man.

If you're fine and okay with Wally just being a wannabe teen titan for the rest of his life then he kind of built some of his life back up, but even that he's been kicked out of. The fact of the matter is he'll never really get his life built back up because that would require him passing up Barry again. Or you defining and being happy with his life being nothing but a background character to someone else's story. Which I would be fine with if he was supporting the right character. Barry is not that.

But sure, let's just wait for the story to end. It'll definitely break the trend this time. Definitely.

Agree with that. I found those kids to be the first nail in the coffin for Wally. It wasn't enough to just let him have kids and have a stable family life... they had to instantly age them up and throw them in costumes. It was bad enough that during that run, Flash seemed to take a backseat to the Rogues... but now he was sharing the spotlight with the twins. He was quickly getting crowded out of his own book.


I hate universe wide reboots and retcons... but if they have anyway possible to get Wally back in the spotlight and keep those kids gone, I'm all for it.

The first nail in the coffin was Didio killing him off/getting rid of him in Infinite Crisis.

I don't know what run you're reading about when you say The Flash took a backseat to The Rogues. That was certainly not the case in the comics with the kids.

Wally is never getting back in the spotlight. Well, at least not for many years.

[married guy]

I'm hoping King writes a better Wally then he writes Booster Gold.

I can't argue that. I was pumped for the 3 issue story in Batman, but man was it AWFUL.
I don't know who that character was, but it sure as hell wasn't Booster Gold.
One of the things Geoff Johns got VERY right was his take on Booster. A real hero who everyone (except Bats) thought was a money hungry, attention chasing idiot.
Tom King seemed to ignore ALL of that and wrote him as a total **** up.

[phantom1592]

I don't know what run you're reading about when you say The Flash took a backseat to The Rogues. That was certainly not the case in the comics with the kids.

Wally is never getting back in the spotlight. Well, at least not for many years.

I was actually referring to Johns' run right before the kids. He seemed to focus on the rogues more than he did with a lot of stand alone issues for Captain Cold and Mirror Master and the likes, then leading up to the Rogue War.... THEN adding in the kids, Wally took an even farther backseat. I think if I recall correctly, there was even the 'Bart=Flash' year in there somewhere... so even when Wally did come back, and it looked like he was Flash again.... he was more guest star/Sidekick to the new tornado twins...


Add in the fact that 'Wally raising and training a young impulsive Speedster' was already Bart's whole thing. So they weren't REALLY adding anything new to the story.


Something about these fully formed geneticly related children just appearing and expecting fans to embrace them like the twins, Damian, Jon Kent... just bugs me.

[Assam]

Add in the fact that 'Wally raising and training a young impulsive Speedster' was already Bart's whole thing. So they weren't REALLY adding anything new to the story.

Except it wasn't? Bart was not Wally's protege/surrogate son, he was Max's. In fact for most of the time Bart was actually himself, he wasn't exactly Wally's biggest fan and was just another member of Team Flash. Hell, even once Bart's personality had been warped as Kid Flash, he still only worked with Wally a handful of times.

None of that is comparable to Wally having two young kids, not teenagers, of his own with completely unique personalizes and powers.

[married guy]

I think the twins are judged harshly and unfairly.
Iris and Jai should've stayed babies and been left alone to grow up over the next 30 years into eventual teenage DC heroes.
Instead, they were caught up in a VERY rough time for the Flash title.
Johns had left the book a year earlier and the last few issues were underwhelming to say the least.
Mark Waid was asked to come back & reluctantly agreed - just so another writer didn't drop a safe on Linda & the kids.
The artist who was lined up for the book, pulled the pin at the 11th hour leaving everyone rushing to get a book out on time.
Also at this stage, I believe DiDio & Co were already planning on bringing back Barry and it was his suggestion to Mark Waid that he write the Flash & kids based on the Incredibles family super-hero approach.
So we had a writer who's heart wasn't in it, writing a book that still had wet ink on the pages when it went to press, being overseen by the boss who was planning on dumping it all anyway.

Not really a conducive environment to produce great work.

Iris & Jai can work as viable characters in their own right if given the chance. I just doubt anyone will get that chance anytime soon.

[married guy]

Add in the fact that 'Wally raising and training a young impulsive Speedster' was already Bart's whole thing. So they weren't REALLY adding anything new to the story.

Wally never raised and trained Bart.
He DID try in Terminal Velocity, but failed miserably!!
Max Mercury took him in shortly after Flash #100 in Impulse #1 and it was one of the best books on the stand. Waid & Ramos absolutely smashed it.

[Cmbmool]

I think the twins are judged harshly and unfairly.
Iris and Jai should've stayed babies and been left alone to grow up over the next 30 years into eventual teenage DC heroes.
Instead, they were caught up in a VERY rough time for the Flash title.
Johns had left the book a year earlier and the last few issues were underwhelming to say the least.
Mark Waid was asked to come back & reluctantly agreed - just so another writer didn't drop a safe on Linda & the kids.
The artist who was lined up for the book, pulled the pin at the 11th hour leaving everyone rushing to get a book out on time.
Also at this stage, I believe DiDio & Co were already planning on bringing back Barry and it was his suggestion to Mark Waid that he write the Flash & kids based on the Incredibles family super-hero approach.
So we had a writer who's heart wasn't in it, writing a book that still had wet ink on the pages when it went to press, being overseen by the boss who was planning on dumping it all anyway.

Not really a conducive environment to produce great work.

Iris & Jai can work as viable characters in their own right if given the chance. I just doubt anyone will get that chance anytime soon.

Well said...One of the things that bug me about Flash War is Barry's lack of understanding the loss of his "Former" Flash Family.

One of the things that Johns should have done or any writer of DC was Give Barry a chance to bond with Iris and Jai and Bart before the events of Flashpoint.

Yet now look what we have....I do feel bad for Wally, but it seems that Barry doesn't Care about Wally's lost past.

[phantom1592]

Well said...One of the things that bug me about Flash War is Barry's lack of understanding the loss of his "Former" Flash Family.

One of the things that Johns should have done or any writer of DC was Give Barry a chance to bond with Iris and Jai and Bart before the events of Flashpoint.

Yet now look what we have....I do feel bad for Wally, but it seems that Barry doesn't Care about Wally's lost past.

That's a fact. Wally and the whole Flash landscape had changed drastically since CoIE and there should have been a much bigger story about Barry trying to fit into the world as it was now, compared to how he remembered it...

As a huge Barry fan who really REALLY wanted him back.... That whole Final Crisis/Rebirth to Flashpoint thing was a disaster.

[Sam]

The majority of his life, the people who were by his side for his run as The Flash, don't even exist. If you think Wally is the sum of everything he was before 1987 then sure, he's rebuilding his life. But that's not the Wally I'm invested in.

For months on end Titans was about how shitty everything ended up for Wally. This isn't some massive revelation. The only thing since has been Flash War and Perfect Storm, neither the best outlooks for Wally. The only person he's connected with is Iris which was immediately cascaded into Wally hallucinating constantly about his ruined/lost life. These aren't cherry picking anything. If the entirety of the Titans run and what little he's been involved in Flash has been Wally being mistreated, miserable, or worse then what else is there? That one Nightwing cameo he had? What great strides has Wally made? That he has an apartment that someone else is paying for him? Wow, what a big step forward for a grown man.

If you're fine and okay with Wally just being a wannabe teen titan for the rest of his life then he kind of built some of his life back up, but even that he's been kicked out of. The fact of the matter is he'll never really get his life built back up because that would require him passing up Barry again. Or you defining and being happy with his life being nothing but a background character to someone else's story. Which I would be fine with if he was supporting the right character. Barry is not that.

But sure, let's just wait for the story to end. It'll definitely break the trend this time. Definitely.

I have a feeling you won't be happy until Barry is dead again and Wally is the main Flash. It's pretty clear less about what is on the page and what you perceive as his status. You're making Barry an obstacle he simply isn't. Do whatever you want, but both Perfect Storm and Flash War have been great for Wally so far. Hopefully, they'll keep up the progress.

[Dred]

I think the twins are judged harshly and unfairly.
Iris and Jai should've stayed babies and been left alone to grow up over the next 30 years into eventual teenage DC heroes.
Instead, they were caught up in a VERY rough time for the Flash title.
Johns had left the book a year earlier and the last few issues were underwhelming to say the least.
Mark Waid was asked to come back & reluctantly agreed - just so another writer didn't drop a safe on Linda & the kids.
The artist who was lined up for the book, pulled the pin at the 11th hour leaving everyone rushing to get a book out on time.
Also at this stage, I believe DiDio & Co were already planning on bringing back Barry and it was his suggestion to Mark Waid that he write the Flash & kids based on the Incredibles family super-hero approach.
So we had a writer who's heart wasn't in it, writing a book that still had wet ink on the pages when it went to press, being overseen by the boss who was planning on dumping it all anyway.

Not really a conducive environment to produce great work.

Iris & Jai can work as viable characters in their own right if given the chance. I just doubt anyone will get that chance anytime soon.

It's not like the Wild Wests arc was even bad. The rest was but that was a series with a noose around its neck once Waid left.

The thing I can't believe is how people say they just can't stand the twins and never want them back but are totally okay with NuWally. And I know the thread title, I'm not bashing the character per se, but if you're going to damn a character for a bad first 20 comics then there's no worse.

I have a feeling you won't be happy until Barry is dead again and Wally is the main Flash. It's pretty clear less about what is on the page and what you perceive as his status. You're making Barry an obstacle he simply isn't. Do whatever you want, but both Perfect Storm and Flash War have been great for Wally so far. Hopefully, they'll keep up the progress.

I'd actually be happy in a world where Barry is dead and Wally is dead/retired, too. I just don't like a world where Barry swoops back in to **** on everyone else and rekindle the glory days of the 60s. I want progression and Barry is the antithesis of the concept. In the only comic that defined legacy besides Starman, Barry destroyed the concept and buried it. All because of a shitty GL movie that never even took off. It's preposterous.

I'd probably be amenable to a retired Barry, too, but if we keep just retiring everyone we have the same problem we have now -- too many characters to fit in the limited pages we have.

We just shouldn't be stuck with the same boring old white guy from the 60s. And those ahead of us shouldn't be stuck with the same boring old white guy from the 90s.

[phantom1592]

I
The thing I can't believe is how people say they just can't stand the twins and never want them back but are totally okay with NuWally. And I know the thread title, I'm not bashing the character per se, but if you're going to damn a character for a bad first 20 comics then there's no worse.

yeah, i'm not that. I have no love for NuWally either

[Shockingjustice]

I was actually referring to Johns' run right before the kids. He seemed to focus on the rogues more than he did with a lot of stand alone issues for Captain Cold and Mirror Master and the likes, then leading up to the Rogue War.... THEN adding in the kids, Wally took an even farther backseat. I think if I recall correctly, there was even the 'Bart=Flash' year in there somewhere... so even when Wally did come back, and it looked like he was Flash again.... he was more guest star/Sidekick to the new tornado twins...


Add in the fact that 'Wally raising and training a young impulsive Speedster' was already Bart's whole thing. So they weren't REALLY adding anything new to the story.


Something about these fully formed geneticly related children just appearing and expecting fans to embrace them like the twins, Damian, Jon Kent... just bugs me.

So do you just not want kids in the DC Universe? I'm genuinely curious.

[phantom1592]

So do you just not want kids in the DC Universe? I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not a fan of aging the characters up and setting up a continuing cycle of replacements. It's just messy. Batman has 4 robins, 3 batgirls, and a signal that is just chaotic. Especially when the iconics are perpetual 30-35 years old.

Adding in Damien severely screws with all of Batman history. He originally met Talia when Ra's kidnapped Dick Grayson as bait... which means that the '5 year Nu52' thing was trashed from the beginning. Jon is also around 10... which means that the death of Superman/Doomsday thing was over 10 years ago... which messed with a LOT of history.

It's one thing to bring in a new orphan and have them join in... but actual birth kids is just messy. Either you have characters skipping 10-12 years of life or you end up with Franklin Richards being 8 1/2 for 20 years...

It's one thing that I think DC went WAY too crazy on. Barry dying and his sidekick replacing him... Okay. Impulse showing up... Wasn't a fan... Half a dozen new sidekicks coming out of the wall... It's too much. If you want to write Batman.. write Batman. If you want to write Flash... write Flash. Introducing a new sidekick or family every time there's a new writer is a disservice to the people buying the book hoping to read about the 'star'.

[Dred]

I'm not a fan of aging the characters up and setting up a continuing cycle of replacements. It's just messy. Batman has 4 robins, 3 batgirls, and a signal that is just chaotic. Especially when the iconics are perpetual 30-35 years old.

Adding in Damien severely screws with all of Batman history. He originally met Talia when Ra's kidnapped Dick Grayson as bait... which means that the '5 year Nu52' thing was trashed from the beginning. Jon is also around 10... which means that the death of Superman/Doomsday thing was over 10 years ago... which messed with a LOT of history.

It's one thing to bring in a new orphan and have them join in... but actual birth kids is just messy. Either you have characters skipping 10-12 years of life or you end up with Franklin Richards being 8 1/2 for 20 years...

It's one thing that I think DC went WAY too crazy on. Barry dying and his sidekick replacing him... Okay. Impulse showing up... Wasn't a fan... Half a dozen new sidekicks coming out of the wall... It's too much. If you want to write Batman.. write Batman. If you want to write Flash... write Flash. Introducing a new sidekick or family every time there's a new writer is a disservice to the people buying the book hoping to read about the 'star'.

The question then becomes, if Wally replacing Barry is okay, why isn't it okay for other characters to be replaced in a similar way? That's where I'm at. How many thousands of stories does Bruce need as Batman before there might be a better one with someone else? A better long term run with someone else?

All I know is we're getting to the point where Bruce is about to be born in the 2000s, and I'm sure generations before me have felt weird about this timescale sliding. I don't like it, and I don't think the word iconic should invalidate every other potential character or story to be done. If you're so worried about timelines, how do you parse that Batman has been in thousands upon thousands of adventures that he couldn't possibly be old enough to have experienced? Damian doesn't mess up anything that isn't already, inherently messed up by Bruce's absurd, personal timeline.

It's not like Wally's the only success story, either. Cass and Steph were both better as Batgirl, Hal and Barry were more revered than Alan and Jay. Heck depending on the retcon they made Wonder Woman a legacy character to Hippolyta.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Um... so this is a thing