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  1. #5236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    I believe Wally loses most of that defense based on his stance during the Lazarus Contract. He tells Deathstoke he should forget about his kid because the possible consequences are too great. There is a notable difference in Wally's kids situation compared to Grant, but it's still not a good look for Wally given his stance in the Lazarus Contract.
    The time travel component makes it a very different situation. Wally even stresses that he isn't going to go back in time in the issue. Even so, I'm not sure the Lazarus Contract is the best story to use to inform who Wally is as a character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    But the real dilemma I have is the execution of the story rather than the concept of it just like with Barry and Flashpoint. I don't think there is any way Wally is going to "win" here, so framing the story as Wally being completely in the wrong is only going to magnify his failure in the end.

    Barry still got to prevail and be the hero of the Perfect Storm arc despite his behavior and actions during it. I don't expect Wally to be given the same treatment, but I certainly could be wrong.
    That's pessimism talking though. Williamson hasn't done anything to really make us believe he doesn't have Wally's best interests at heart. I doubt he's going to hold Wally to a different standard here than he did Barry in Perfect Storm. I wouldn't let what might be ruin your enjoyment of what is.
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  2. #5237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    It's his kids. People have done much more reckless and stupid things to save their children. It completely makes sense that this is the thing that would make him say screw the consequences.
    Wally's kids were killed and he still refused to time travel to save them until he was forced to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    The time travel component makes it a very different situation. Wally even stresses that he isn't going to go back in time in the issue. Even so, I'm not sure the Lazarus Contract is the best story to use to inform who Wally is as a character.



    That's pessimism talking though. Williamson hasn't done anything to really make us believe he doesn't have Wally's best interests at heart. I doubt he's going to hold Wally to a different standard here than he did Barry in Perfect Storm. I wouldn't let what might be ruin your enjoyment of what is.
    The difference is this is Barry's comic book, so everything working out for him in the end is so they can keep the status quo and continue writing said comic book.

    Wally is not the main character of anything, and his status quo for 2 years has been absolute misery and failure. And we're going to get even more of that since we know he's appearing in the "my life is ruined" Tom King comic. So yeah, I can see how he's not going to get the Barry treatment. Wally hasn't been given the Barry treatment since 2009.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-13-2018 at 10:33 AM.

  3. #5238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    The time travel component makes it a very different situation. Wally even stresses that he isn't going to go back in time in the issue. Even so, I'm not sure the Lazarus Contract is the best story to use to inform who Wally is as a character.
    For better or worse, the Lazarus Contract is canon until it isn't. And Wally has almost always been hesitant in these sort of situations. I also don't think time-traveling and breaking the Speed Force is all that different as both actions potentially impact the world as it is.

    That's pessimism talking though. Williamson hasn't done anything to really make us believe he doesn't have Wally's best interests at heart. I doubt he's going to hold Wally to a different standard here than he did Barry in Perfect Storm. I wouldn't let what might be ruin your enjoyment of what is.
    My issue is the story so far has gone to great lengths to make sure readers know Wally is in the wrong when it absolutely doesn't need to. Wally is easily my favorite character, but I have no problems recognizing and admitting the way he is going about things is incredibly stupid and wrong. I have no problem with him failing to succeed with how he's going about things.

    It's things like having Wally threaten Barry and claim he's better that I have an issue with at this point. Things like that don't seem to serve any point beyond making it clear to readers who they should be rooting for in this conflict when it's already pretty clear to begin with. This is coming on the heels of an arc where Wally was called a pretender and the False Flash as well.

    Williamson is certainly capable of throwing in some twist to balance things out and I don't think anything is intentional on his part. I think the most likely outcome is Wally will ultimately fail (which he should) and Hunter will be held responsible for everything within the story. I just don't think all the extra stuff does Wally any good in the grand scheme of things.
    Last edited by Rend20; 06-13-2018 at 10:59 AM.

  4. #5239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Wally's kids were killed and he still refused to time travel to save them until he was forced to.
    He also did get them back through time travel that time, so...

    Besides, there is a difference between death and trapped. And there is a difference between the potential children and real life 10 year olds that you've had time to bond with. Both are said, but they are going to elicit different reactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The difference is this is Barry's comic book, so everything working out for him in the end is so they can keep the status quo and continue writing said comic book.

    Wally is not the main character of anything, and his status quo for 2 years has been absolute misery and failure. And we're going to get even more of that since we know he's appearing in the "my life is ruined" Tom King comic. So yeah, I can see how he's not going to get the Barry treatment. Wally hasn't been given the Barry treatment since 2009.
    First off, crisis centers aren't "my life is ruined," so much as "I'm dealing with some stuff and I need a support system." Second, absolute misery and failure is a total exaggeration. It's been tough for him, but there's been a lot of success. He beat Abra Kadabra, he got his friends back, he recovered from the heart thing, he's got an apartment, he reconnected with Iris, he saved the world quite a few times, and there have been a lot of smiles on his face along the way. Each step has been difficult, but not failure. If the kids don't come back after this arc, I don't expect it to be failure, so much as the next step in his narrative. And he does have a narrative, that's what has changed since 2009. Finally, we know Williamson likes Wally, so win or lose, I think he'll treat the character with respect.
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  5. #5240
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    I'm not going to pass judgement until the status quo after Flash War has been revealed because, really, we don't actually know anything beyond the fact that Williamson clearly likes Wally.

    As for the Crisis book, like I said in its own thread, if it was anyone but Tom King, I would avoid the thing like the plague but because it is him, it's pretty much an automatic buy for me. I know that he gets quite a bit of hate in these forums, but from where I sit, Tom King is the most exciting writer to have come along in the past few years.
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  6. #5241
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    I'm not going to pass judgement until the status quo after Flash War has been revealed because, really, we don't actually know anything beyond the fact that Williamson clearly likes Wally.

    As for the Crisis book, like I said in its own thread, if it was anyone but Tom King, I would avoid the thing like the plague but because it is him, it's pretty much an automatic buy for me. I know that he gets quite a bit of hate in these forums, but from where I sit, Tom King is the most exciting writer to have come along in the past few years.
    I agree, I'm very excited about where he takes the character.

    If anything, Wally needs a theraphy. For that alone I'm thankful.

  7. #5242
    Mighty Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    http://ew.com/books/2018/06/13/batma...sis-sanctuary/

    Wally is confirmed to be in Tom King's book "Heroes In Crisis".
    UGH! Well that really is a shame. I’m not reading that crap. DC continues to alienate Wally fans.

    However I really enjoyed today’s issue and I hope Wally destroys the speed force!
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  8. #5243
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    How putting him in the new crisis is a way to alienate Wally fans?

    I really don't understand the mindset. If he isn't anywhere to be seen, DC is alienating fans. If he is in their next big thing, DC is still alienating fans.

  9. #5244
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashFreak View Post
    UGH! Well that really is a shame. I’m not reading that crap. DC continues to alienate Wally fans.

    However I really enjoyed today’s issue and I hope Wally destroys the speed force!
    No they aren't. I'm interested in this idea more than Wally's problems being magically gone. He's been traumatised and he needs professional help.

  10. #5245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    He's been traumatised and he needs professional help.
    It’s the same tired trope of a superhero needing to be traumatized to be a great superhero. Why can’t Wally just win and have his life back? Why can’t he just have a happy ending ( maybe he will it’s just speculation at this point)? If you guys want to read it and are interested then great! But at this point it seems DC is just purposefully trying to crap on Wally to make it clear he will always be the “lesser flash”.
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  11. #5246
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    Wally's problems are too much to ignore. Being written by DC's biggest modern talent is far from "getting crapped on". It's a much better exposure than being shoved to Titans.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashFreak View Post
    Itís the same tired trope of a superhero needing to be traumatized to be a great superhero.
    Where did you get this?

  12. #5247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    No they aren't. I'm interested in this idea more than Wally's problems being magically gone. He's been traumatised and he needs professional help.
    In theory, sure. But I can't say I'm all that interested in them potentially rehashing everything he's already been dealing with over the last two years. At some point the character has to be allowed to move forward. I was hoping Flash War would serve as the catalyst for that no matter what forward meant.

    On an unrelated note, should we make anything of Donna saying Wally was her best friend in the Titans special? It wouldn't make a lot of sense for her to phrase it like that if he was still around. It's not like their friendship had to end just because the Titans split up.

  13. #5248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    He also did get them back through time travel that time, so...

    Besides, there is a difference between death and trapped. And there is a difference between the potential children and real life 10 year olds that you've had time to bond with. Both are said, but they are going to elicit different reactions.



    First off, crisis centers aren't "my life is ruined," so much as "I'm dealing with some stuff and I need a support system." Second, absolute misery and failure is a total exaggeration. It's been tough for him, but there's been a lot of success. He beat Abra Kadabra, he got his friends back, he recovered from the heart thing, he's got an apartment, he reconnected with Iris, he saved the world quite a few times, and there have been a lot of smiles on his face along the way. Each step has been difficult, but not failure. If the kids don't come back after this arc, I don't expect it to be failure, so much as the next step in his narrative. And he does have a narrative, that's what has changed since 2009. Finally, we know Williamson likes Wally, so win or lose, I think he'll treat the character with respect.
    All of the Titans stuff has been thrown out the window and repeatedly spat upon. And ultimately he failed in his real goal of reconnecting with Linda.

    And while crisis centers aren't solely "my life is ruined," Wally's life is ruined. And it's not being fixed. Because he's not Barry. That's what's changed since 2009 -- he's not Barry so this is what we're left with. A tale of constant, depressing, maddening tragedy over and over again about a character who was explicitly not built around tragedy. Read the thread title and realize how preposterous Wally's situation has been for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    How putting him in the new crisis is a way to alienate Wally fans?

    I really don't understand the mindset. If he isn't anywhere to be seen, DC is alienating fans. If he is in their next big thing, DC is still alienating fans.
    Because I am absolutely beyond sick of feeling depressed every time I deign think about Wally. I've been this way for a decade now. When is enough enough?

    Do you want me to be excited for Wally dealing with the fallout of losing his kids? Losing the love of his life?

    Because I read Black Flash. I read Blitz and everything that followed. These aren't new ideas. This isn't taking the character in a different direction. It's taking him in a same direction without any hope on the horizon, because at least back when Black Flash and Blitz happened, Wally was the main character, so there was always hope. We knew there'd always be another Wally comic coming and he'd get to set things right.

    I just can't stand getting a pit in my gut every time I talk about my favorite DC character. Right now, here I am, and all I get to talk about is how his entire return has been filled with nothing but trauma after trauma. Failure after failure. Even what minor successes he has had have been dismissed as him and his friends actually being the worst heroes ever.

    DC keeps telling me the same thing over and over again. I'm waiting for them to tell me something different. And telling me "Now Wally is going to be in an ensemble book written by a man who takes every character and breaks them down into their darkest, most depressing, most trauma laden selves!" Hoo. Ray. It's all I ever dreamed of. I swear to god if I have to deal with Wally being diagnosed by Harley Quin I'm going to lose what little composure I'm barely holding onto.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-13-2018 at 01:22 PM.

  14. #5249
    Mighty Member Jekyll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    In theory, sure. But I can't say I'm all that interested in them potentially rehashing everything he's already been dealing with over the last two years. At some point the character has to be allowed to move forward. I was hoping Flash War would serve as the catalyst for that no matter what forward meant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    All of the Titans stuff has been thrown out the window and repeatedly spat upon. And ultimately he failed in his real goal of reconnecting with Linda.

    And while crisis centers aren't solely "my life is ruined," Wally's life is ruined. And it's not being fixed. Because he's not Barry. That's what's changed since 2009 -- he's not Barry so this is what we're left with. A tale of constant, depressing, maddening tragedy over and over again about a character who was explicitly not built around tragedy. Read the thread title and realize how preposterous Wally's situation has been for years.



    Because I am absolutely beyond sick of feeling depressed everytime I deign think about Wally. I've been this way for a decade now. When is enough enough?
    Agreee! Those are my feelings as well.
    Last edited by Jekyll; 06-13-2018 at 01:27 PM.
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  15. #5250
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post

    Because I am absolutely beyond sick of feeling depressed every time I deign think about Wally. I've been this way for a decade now. When is enough enough?

    Do you want me to be excited for Wally dealing with the fallout of losing his kids? Losing the love of his life?
    We don't know what the fallout of Flash War is. Maybe the story has a good ending? Just like 99% of comic book arc ever.

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