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  1. #301
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    "We often get asked that very fair question, and we wish we had an answer that would satisfy. But the simple truth is we don’t. Our book is about Barry. We are focusing on Barry. And there is nothing we can say to put Wally fans at peace".

    [if] you removed Barry’s association with Wally and retconned a new origin for him, he WOULDN’T be Wally any more. He would just be a new flash with Wally’s hair color and name. Wally’s much beloved journey from Kid Flash to Flash (and the death of his mentor) DEFINE who Wally is. So I just don’t see how you can start with him.

    Straigh from Manapul and Buccelato interview at last year's Comic-Con.

    Source: A Conversation with Dan DiDio via Cody Walker of BleedingCool.com

    He explained that fans had grown up with Wally West, seen him get married and have children and with the de-aging of Barry Allen, it would cheat those fans who grew to love Wally to de-age him as well. “But don’t go quoting me on that,” he said with a laugh

    http://awildcrisisappears.wordpress....or-dcs-new-52/

    Lmao and yet they do this.
    Last edited by Neowing; 05-25-2014 at 09:25 AM.

  2. #302
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackGodKing View Post
    I would like to know from the people that are against the race bending what are the top 5 things you loved about pre52 Wally that can't be done with NuWally?
    In a way that's the wrong question. Let me put it this way, the race issue can be seen in two ways. First, it's really only skin deep and the color of a person's skin is just the colour of the person's skin. This means then that there may be no problem with changing a fictional character's race but it's also utterly pointless to do so in the first place. On the other hand, if race is not just about the colour of one's skin but is a question of culture - a premise that strikes me as more honest and, I assume, more widely accepted by people - then changing the colour of a character's skin, fundamentally changes the character.

    In that case, this simply isn't Wally West, who has always been portrayed as a white kid from a Midwestern Republican family whose childhood was less troubled and more a mixture of boredom and closed-mindedness and whose relationship with the Flash - first as a guy he didn't know but admired and then as someone who was intimately involved in his life - was very much defined by that. In the classic issue #0 of Waid's run on The Flash, we specifically see how The Flash was an escape for a young Wally West who was basically bored and misunderstood by his relatives.

    That background has been eradicated by "turning" this new Wally black and giving him an urban background. This new Wally, therefore, can't possibly have the same personality as the real Wally Wesy and he certainly won't have an even remotely similar dynamic with the Flash. This is made all the worse by the fact that this new "Wally" is a walking black stereotype: a troubled black teenager - who also, as it so happens, hates The Flash. Trying to impose the real Wally West's personality on this new and so far seemingly pretty crappy character is simply doomed to backfire badly.

    Of course, there is also the bigger issue that has nothing to do with race but which the race thing has done a pretty good job of obscuring. The reason why Wally West was such a beloved character was precisely because of the decades of character growth and history - a fairly unique fact that not even someone like Dick Grayson could match.

    At this point the only thing about this character that has anything to do with the Wally West that so many of us were fans of, is his name.
    Check out my blog, Because Everyone Else Has One, for my regularly updated movie reviews.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    In a way that's the wrong question. Let me put it this way, the race issue can be seen in two ways. First, it's really only skin deep and the color of a person's skin is just the colour of the person's skin. This means then that there may be no problem with changing a fictional character's race but it's also utterly pointless to do so in the first place. On the other hand, if race is not just about the colour of one's skin but is a question of culture - a premise that strikes me as more honest and, I assume, more widely accepted by people - then changing the colour of a character's skin, fundamentally changes the character.

    In that case, this simply isn't Wally West, who has always been portrayed as a white kid from a Midwestern Republican family whose childhood was less troubled and more a mixture of boredom and closed-mindedness and whose relationship with the Flash - first as a guy he didn't know but admired and then as someone who was intimately involved in his life - was very much defined by that. In the classic issue #0 of Waid's run on The Flash, we specifically see how The Flash was an escape for a young Wally West who was basically bored and misunderstood by his relatives.

    That background has been eradicated by "turning" this new Wally black and giving him an urban background. This new Wally, therefore, can't possibly have the same personality as the real Wally Wesy and he certainly won't have an even remotely similar dynamic with the Flash. This is made all the worse by the fact that this new "Wally" is a walking black stereotype: a troubled black teenager - who also, as it so happens, hates The Flash. Trying to impose the real Wally West's personality on this new and so far seemingly pretty crappy character is simply doomed to backfire badly.

    Of course, there is also the bigger issue that has nothing to do with race but which the race thing has done a pretty good job of obscuring. The reason why Wally West was such a beloved character was precisely because of the decades of character growth and history - a fairly unique fact that not even someone like Dick Grayson could match.

    At this point the only thing about this character that has anything to do with the Wally West that so many of us were fans of, is his name.

    You explained that perfectly, and for those who continue to act like WE,are the fascists, or the terrible ppl for not agreeing with this,YOU are the one who is exactly what you have been calling us.

  4. #304
    Nostalgia Fanwanker Pharozonk's Avatar
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    Well put, Ilan Preskovsky.
    "In any time, there will always be a need for heroes." - the Time Trapper, Legion of Superheroes #61(1994)

    "What can I say? I guess I outgrew maturity.." - Bob Chipman

  5. #305
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Thank you kindly.
    Check out my blog, Because Everyone Else Has One, for my regularly updated movie reviews.

  6. #306
    Junior Member The Flash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    In a way that's the wrong question. Let me put it this way, the race issue can be seen in two ways. First, it's really only skin deep and the color of a person's skin is just the colour of the person's skin. This means then that there may be no problem with changing a fictional character's race but it's also utterly pointless to do so in the first place. On the other hand, if race is not just about the colour of one's skin but is a question of culture - a premise that strikes me as more honest and, I assume, more widely accepted by people - then changing the colour of a character's skin, fundamentally changes the character.

    In that case, this simply isn't Wally West, who has always been portrayed as a white kid from a Midwestern Republican family whose childhood was less troubled and more a mixture of boredom and closed-mindedness and whose relationship with the Flash - first as a guy he didn't know but admired and then as someone who was intimately involved in his life - was very much defined by that. In the classic issue #0 of Waid's run on The Flash, we specifically see how The Flash was an escape for a young Wally West who was basically bored and misunderstood by his relatives.

    That background has been eradicated by "turning" this new Wally black and giving him an urban background. This new Wally, therefore, can't possibly have the same personality as the real Wally Wesy and he certainly won't have an even remotely similar dynamic with the Flash. This is made all the worse by the fact that this new "Wally" is a walking black stereotype: a troubled black teenager - who also, as it so happens, hates The Flash. Trying to impose the real Wally West's personality on this new and so far seemingly pretty crappy character is simply doomed to backfire badly.

    Of course, there is also the bigger issue that has nothing to do with race but which the race thing has done a pretty good job of obscuring. The reason why Wally West was such a beloved character was precisely because of the decades of character growth and history - a fairly unique fact that not even someone like Dick Grayson could match.

    At this point the only thing about this character that has anything to do with the Wally West that so many of us were fans of, is his name.
    Quoted for truth. It's nothing to do with race but the fact of changing our favorite Flash who had so much history, for the sake of changing. This isn't XS or Max Mercury or Jesse Quick or John Fox or Walter West- this is Wally West we're talking about. or who he used to be...

  7. #307
    Veteran Member Trevel8182's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    In a way that's the wrong question. Let me put it this way, the race issue can be seen in two ways. First, it's really only skin deep and the color of a person's skin is just the colour of the person's skin. This means then that there may be no problem with changing a fictional character's race but it's also utterly pointless to do so in the first place. On the other hand, if race is not just about the colour of one's skin but is a question of culture - a premise that strikes me as more honest and, I assume, more widely accepted by people - then changing the colour of a character's skin, fundamentally changes the character.

    In that case, this simply isn't Wally West, who has always been portrayed as a white kid from a Midwestern Republican family whose childhood was less troubled and more a mixture of boredom and closed-mindedness and whose relationship with the Flash - first as a guy he didn't know but admired and then as someone who was intimately involved in his life - was very much defined by that. In the classic issue #0 of Waid's run on The Flash, we specifically see how The Flash was an escape for a young Wally West who was basically bored and misunderstood by his relatives.

    That background has been eradicated by "turning" this new Wally black and giving him an urban background. This new Wally, therefore, can't possibly have the same personality as the real Wally Wesy and he certainly won't have an even remotely similar dynamic with the Flash. This is made all the worse by the fact that this new "Wally" is a walking black stereotype: a troubled black teenager - who also, as it so happens, hates The Flash. Trying to impose the real Wally West's personality on this new and so far seemingly pretty crappy character is simply doomed to backfire badly.

    Of course, there is also the bigger issue that has nothing to do with race but which the race thing has done a pretty good job of obscuring. The reason why Wally West was such a beloved character was precisely because of the decades of character growth and history - a fairly unique fact that not even someone like Dick Grayson could match.

    At this point the only thing about this character that has anything to do with the Wally West that so many of us were fans of, is his name.
    Bravo! Bravo! Hell of a write up.

  8. #308
    Wally 'Ginger' West fan
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    Quote Originally Posted by !Pharozonk! View Post
    Well put, Ilan Preskovsky.
    Yep. Adding my kudos there. Nicely said. Very nicely said.

    New Costume on The Speedster Kid Who Just Happens To Share The Same Name As My Hero (yet is not he):

    First thought was "Hey, it's Kid Cyborg." I'm sorry. Take that as you will (because you will), but I saw a black male wearing a chrome metal suit (or at least it looks like metal) and immediately thought of Cyborg...specifically Cyborg who fought with Wally in Crossfire. It's like Cyborg's kid got dressed by Bart Allen's tailor. (My opinion. Others may differ and I don't care, I'm voicing my opinion and not asking for it to be voted as acceptable enough for this forum. African-American + Male + silvery metal suit = Cyborg. At least with DC.)

    Really dislike those red...thingees...on his forearms. Are they supposed to be hiding weaponry? Lasers? They look...tacked on. Like they were an afterthought and not a good one at that. Like one of those ridiculous accessories they used to give Flash toys that made you scratch your head trying to figure it out. You know the one...the roller skates? Yeah.

    On the creative team remarks. That made me angry. I'd say all the reasons why, but I don't think I could voice said reasons without devolving into spitting my rage on my keyboard. Will just summarize with "Hypocrites!"
    Right. Red Lantern ring is looking my way. I'm stopping right there.
    Parental care is way exhausting. Gained insight into what my parents went through when I was a baby. Not fun, but what ya gonna do? (Read comics, obviously.)

  9. #309
    Always Rakzo
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    Ha! This thread has gone places while I was gone, okay let's see:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    In a way that's the wrong question. Let me put it this way, the race issue can be seen in two ways. First, it's really only skin deep and the color of a person's skin is just the colour of the person's skin. This means then that there may be no problem with changing a fictional character's race but it's also utterly pointless to do so in the first place. On the other hand, if race is not just about the colour of one's skin but is a question of culture - a premise that strikes me as more honest and, I assume, more widely accepted by people - then changing the colour of a character's skin, fundamentally changes the character.
    Not necessarily since personality is what matters the most as I mentioned before.

    In that case, this simply isn't Wally West, who has always been portrayed as a white kid from a Midwestern Republican family whose childhood was less troubled and more a mixture of boredom and closed-mindedness and whose relationship with the Flash - first as a guy he didn't know but admired and then as someone who was intimately involved in his life - was very much defined by that. In the classic issue #0 of Waid's run on The Flash, we specifically see how The Flash was an escape for a young Wally West who was basically bored and misunderstood by his relatives.
    What? No, no, no.

    Wally's parents had a really troubled marriage mostly because of his father, he even tried to kill Wally's mother once and as seen in William Messner-Loebs' run, this affected Wally pretty deeply since he wanted the kind of closeness he could never get from his own family. That's why he became so attached to Iris and eventually Barry.

    Just because Waid decided to change things that happened before so they could fit into his run (for the worse I might add), that doesn't mean they're true.

    That background has been eradicated by "turning" this new Wally black and giving him an urban background. This new Wally, therefore, can't possibly have the same personality as the real Wally Wesy and he certainly won't have an even remotely similar dynamic with the Flash. This is made all the worse by the fact that this new "Wally" is a walking black stereotype: a troubled black teenager - who also, as it so happens, hates The Flash. Trying to impose the real Wally West's personality on this new and so far seemingly pretty crappy character is simply doomed to backfire badly.
    Wally still has a complicated relationship with his parents which makes him look for other rolemodels in his life.

    One which most certainly will be Barry.

    Of course, there is also the bigger issue that has nothing to do with race but which the race thing has done a pretty good job of obscuring. The reason why Wally West was such a beloved character was precisely because of the decades of character growth and history - a fairly unique fact that not even someone like Dick Grayson could match.
    They were not going to make Wally return with all his history, that wouldn't have worked in the reboot.

    At this point the only thing about this character that has anything to do with the Wally West that so many of us were fans of, is his name.
    And you know, personality and basic premise.

  10. #310
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post

    Wally's parents had a really troubled marriage mostly because of his father, he even tried to kill Wally's mother once and as seen in William Messner-Loebs' run, this affected Wally pretty deeply since he wanted the kind of closeness he could never get from his own family. That's why he became so attached to Iris and eventually Barry.

    Just because Waid decided to change things that happened before so they could fit into his run (for the worse I might add), that doesn't mean they're true.

    Wally still has a complicated relationship with his parents which makes him look for other rolemodels in his life.

    One which most certainly will be Barry.
    ...and then there's *truly* OG Wally (e.g. from the Silver/Bronze Age), whose parents were practically clones of Ward and June Cleaver.

    Pre-COIE Wally had about as an idyllic a childhood as any superhero had during the Silver Age.

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  11. #311
    Always Rakzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    ...and then there's *truly* OG Wally (e.g. from the Silver/Bronze Age), whose parents were practically clones of Ward and June Cleaver.

    Pre-COIE Wally had about as an idyllic a childhood as any superhero had during the Silver Age.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Yeah, all his family actually loved him in that time.

    That doesn't mean that changed post-COIE though, is just that his family (especially his parents) started to show less than idealistic traits and in his father's case, some quite evil ones.

    However, Messner-Loebs was able to add more depth to both of them and you couldn't help but end-up liking them at the end despite of their flaws.

  12. #312
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Just because Waid decided to change things that happened before so they could fit into his run (for the worse I might add), that doesn't mean they're true.
    Wally's family was stilldisfunctional as hell, and that was the reason he was so close to Iris (and later,Barry) in Waid's run as well.

  13. #313
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevel8182 View Post
    UGH! That look just does not work at all without the flowing red hair and the very light skin. The reverse Yellow and Red is a trademark of Wally's look but at this point what do I know.
    Sure it does. Danica Williams has been sporting it for a year, and she looks awesome.


  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Wally's family was stilldisfunctional as hell, and that was the reason he was so close to Iris (and later,Barry) in Waid's run as well.
    Yes, except that in Waid's run they were more like downright bastards who wanted to hide their faults under some idiotic pretense of "normalcy".

    Which was pretty ridiculous considering that Rudy used to be a Manhunter.

  15. #315
    Veteran Member Trevel8182's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Sure it does. Danica Williams has been sporting it for a year, and she looks awesome.

    Yeah she looks great in it and the costume works great with her hair color and skin color, really good color coordination, but Wally is reverse Yellow and Red with Red hair that balances the colors and helps to easily distinguish him from Barry now this guy looks like Kid Cyborg. I really wish not Wally was actually her father David, Danny, Damian Williams, that would of been a great way to place her in the main continuity which she deserves because she's awesome.

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