"The Flash Is Not About Tragedy": Wally West Appreciation! (NO NUWALLY BASHING!!!)

[Lee]

Sooner or later, people who refuse to take their rose-colored glasses of DC upper management and editorial acting strictly professional and not letting their own personal biases affect or dictate how they perform their jobs, are either going to have to voluntarily take off those glasses or else reality will smack them off for them.

This conversation tangent started with someone saying that DC wanted their comic (Titans) to fail. Which is ridiculous whichever way you look at it.

[godisawesome]

It is interesting to try and examine DC's more controversial moves through the lens of whether they had enough faith in a property to expand it or had so little they felt they had to consolidate it, and damn the consequences. A decent number of their more regressive decisions probably tell you what lines and properties they think have a limited appeal in what's kind of involved into a niche market; and while you're thinking about that, maybe ponder what properties would have continued to expand if the comic market hadn't nosedived on the 90's.

Didio awhile back was recorded as saying that DC primarily markets towards 20 to 30 year olds, right? And while that seems stupid it may just be a conservative business decisions: comics are not as cheap or as readily available as they once were, so the most reliable market must have disposable income and transportation to a comic shop (no laughing matter out here in the Midwest), and that demographic is in some ways already dedicated to buying the comics regardless of the direction they take. So Didio and co don't really want to expand the franchise to all new fans but instead get a bigger slice of the same pie that Marvel, Dark Horse, and everybody else are at. And unfortunately, the New 52 turned to the same tactics that artificially inflated Marvel's market share in the late 90's; cheap marketing ploys and an over reliance on a single type of comic heavy on art and grit, but sometimes low on heart and soul.

Which is where Wally comes in. Dan Didio almost certainly doesn't hate the character. But something made him nervous about the Flash property, so nervous that he dumped arguably his best creative force off the property and attempted to consolidate the entire mythos onto the easiest character to talk about. And when the initially surprising success of the series started to leave after the first creative team left, they got really derivative; we had time travel shenanigans with questionable art design and darkness throughout, followed by an attempt to copy and paste a Reverse Flash story from the TV show.

[The Darknight Detective]

History and reality have proven you completely and utterly in the wrong time and time again. Anything else I might say would get me in trouble here.

Everybody is allowed a different opinion here, even if it's different than a mod's. As long as you're civil about it, there wouldn't be a problem. Of course, your post leads me to believe you wouldn't be civil, so maybe it's a good thing not to say anything instead.

[Waterfall]

There were signs of reshaping Flash into a X-Men like franchise (through Speed Force) prior to Rebirth. The main goal was to use Wally's race shift to get Marvel like exposure. Wally West is the most successful legacy character and all legacy characters are PoC these days so I understand what they were trying to do. Problem arose when editor didn't give a crap about HOW he was reintroduced. I'm going to put a lot of blame on Brian Cunningham here. Everything back fired when even their target audience hated the introduction, if they had gotten support on Twitter and Tumblr, things wouldn't have ended up like this. So they were going to backpedal with DCYou and reintroduce him in Titans Hunt (which was confirmed). That's also probably why Thawne was given Zolomon's powerset because Wally was just going to be a Titans only character so he didn't need a Rogues gallery.

Things changed when Geoff Johns finally gained enough power and said enough.

Didio admittedly positions himself as a lightning rod. To be fair to Didio though, the one character that i know of where he himself has actually said he had something against and wanted gone, he eventually came around after fans spoke up. A lot of the other cases where people claim he hates so and so, or he has something against so and so, is more or less fan speculation. Based off perception and things heard through the grapevine.

Regardless DC not only brought Wally back, they brought him and the Titans to the forefront of DC with Rebirth. Right now the Titans problem isn't lack of support from DC but quality. Creatively the book itself isn't anything special. Its uninspired, it looks dated, moves too slowly, and the characterizations are rather boring. Its just riding Wally and the Titans being back together.

First, that's your SUBJECTIVE opinion. Titans is a pretty damn good book. Decompressed maybe but so is all other books, it's a general DC problem.

Second; facts say Titans is successful, whether you like it or not.
Third; a book's quality doesn't effect the amount of exposure it's given, Batgirl is the prime example of this. It's an awful book but while a better book like Nightwing was given a small part in Direct Currents, she was given an entire page.
Fourth; Titans is selling fine and it's recent digital sales topped Flash's which is a damn good feat.(While new issue of Teen Titans were far lower)

So not advertising a "potentially" good book is shooting your own knee and DC tends to do that a lot.

[Kyer]

Bart Allen.
Legacy of a Legacy character.
One created by the -infamous- Mark Waid.
Beloved, fun, character.

Made serious and not fun as Kid Flash. Made even more somber as Flash.
Allowed to continue in DC52 where he promptly... Becomes an a-hole towards Barry (against all Flash fan hopes), an a-hole in general, then his very name taken away just before being kicked out of the picture. Nothing short of an attempt to utterly shred a legacy memory.
Oh, and his trade from Impulse times got pulled.

Then the whole Flashpoint Flash Family --NOT-- fiasco... Which made matters worse by encouraging the writers to kill off characters in wild and imaginative ways with the exception of Barry...before wiping the slate clean save for the Batman and GL Jordan lines.

All of which combined with history already mentioned makes me want to say...

Didio who?

Unfortunately he is still here.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Everybody is allowed a different opinion here, even if it's different than a mod's. As long as you're civil about it, there wouldn't be a problem. Of course, your post leads me to believe you wouldn't be civil, so maybe it's a good thing not to say anything instead.

The most neutral way to phrase what I would want to say is, in my opinion, I think you and others like-minded are being very naive and that you're giving Dan Didio and DC's editorial and upper management credit for professionalism where they deserve, again in my opinion, absolutely none whatsoever. And I'll stop there.

[The Darknight Detective]

The most neutral way to phrase what I would want to say is, in my opinion, I think you and others like-minded are being very naive and that you're giving Dan Didio and DC's editorial and upper management credit for professionalism where they deserve, again in my opinion, absolutely none whatsoever. And I'll stop there.

It's not being naive, but based on years working in management at the highest levels. Let me ask you this: what is the benefit for Didio to set up a comic book for failure? Does it make his bosses at WB giddy when a magazine is cancelled? Every time it happens, it's a black mark next to his name. Now if Dido were a billionaire and didn't have to answer to anyone, then maybe you could make the argument that his own personal preferences trump the profit motive. It's not the case here, however.

[Lee]

Third; a book's quality doesn't effect the amount of exposure it's given, Batgirl is the prime example of this. It's an awful book but while a better book like Nightwing was given a small part in Direct Currents, she was given an entire page.

You are putting way too much stock in the Direct Currents magazine.

It's there to get comic store customers interested in buying what's on the shelves and what will be on the shelves soon.

Going back to Teen Titans. Teen Titans #2 is fresh on the shelves. Most stores would still have copies of #1 and the Rebirth special available. It makes sense to do a feature on that series, readers can jump right in at the beginning.

Titans is up to #5, which is part 5 of a 6 part story. It's a monthly title, so most stores would no longer have #1 on the shelves. So instead they had a spotlight on January's #7, which will be a self-contained story, a jumping on point. Same for Deathstroke, which is currently up to part 7 of an 8 part story.

That might also be the same case for Batgirl and Nightwing. Or maybe they didn't want the magazine to be too male character centric.

[upgrayedd]

can we take down the "no NuWally bashing?' , it has been long enough, I don't think there is anymore emotions about him. Classic Wally is back and I personally don't even think of NuWally anymore, he is his own character.

[Kyer]

I'm also past disgusted feelings towards WW2 (heh) as he as no longer an usurper in my eyes or portrayed as an a-hole. That doesn't mean I'm embracing him either...I just plain don't care. There are tons of heroes I don't give two cents about and he's one of them.
But yeah, will never 'forgive' race swapping and gender bending of established characters. Even in fanfic stories I avoid that stuff like a Mary Sue OC.
Any sign of ads for Titans Rebirth trade #1? My store starts showing Pre orders up to six months in advance and nada. Want to know how much I need to set aside for it next year.

[BohemiaDrinker]

It's not being naive, but based on years working in management at the highest levels. Let me ask you this: what is the benefit for Didio to set up a comic book for failure? Does it make his bosses at WB giddy when a magazine is cancelled? Every time it happens, it's a black mark next to his name. Now if Dido were a billionaire and didn't have to answer to anyone, then maybe you could make the argument that his own personal preferences trump the profit motive. It's not the case here, however.

It's not as simple, though. Of course nothing is built for failing, but some things are not built to last either; in Flash's ase specificaly, his goal was bringing Barry back (well documented), in a point in which Bart would styill be the Flash (again, well documented) and Wally was nowhere to be seen (logical deduction).

If Bart would have been a hit, he'd be gone the same. (And he had great initial sales). Same goes for Wally's return. It wouldn't -and didn't really- matter. Hell, and Wally's book was first cancelled it was one of the top selling DC books.

Didio and his team were comfortable enough surfing the success of Green Lantern, Batman and Infinite Crisis to be able to pull this kind of stunt off.

[The Darknight Detective]

It's not as simple, though. Of course nothing is built for failing, but some things are not built to last either; in Flash's ase specificaly, his goal was bringing Barry back (well documented), in a point in which Bart would styill be the Flash (again, well documented) and Wally was nowhere to be seen (logical deduction).

If Bart would have been a hit, he'd be gone the same. (And he had great initial sales). Same goes for Wally's return. It wouldn't -and didn't really- matter. Hell, and Wally's book was first cancelled it was one of the top selling DC books.

Didio and his team were comfortable enough surfing the success of Green Lantern, Batman and Infinite Crisis to be able to pull this kind of stunt off.

If either Wally and Bart had been selling well, one of them would still be here as the Flash and not Barry. Unfortunately for those two, they were selling at a point they could be replaced. At that point, then Didio or whomever might indeed go fanboyish.

[The Darknight Detective]

can we take down the "no NuWally bashing?' , it has been long enough, I don't think there is anymore emotions about him. Classic Wally is back and I personally don't even think of NuWally anymore, he is his own character.

You spoke to soon. Since I don't want to have anybody banned here (not directed at you, BTW), it will stay at the top of the thread indefinitely.

[BohemiaDrinker]

If either Wally and Bart had been selling well, one of them would still be here as the Flash and not Barry. Unfortunately for those two, they were selling at a point they could be replaced. At that point, then Didio or whomever might indeed go fanboyish.

And they did go fanboyish.

1) Now, every character who's not Batman sells numbers that "could" justify their replacement.

2) During 2005, Wally's book sold, consistently, 45k books (sometimes more). It was never once pushed from the top 50 books, frequently on the top 30, and at 10 of the 12 months of the year, it was one of the five best selling DC books.

3) It was cancelled in early 2006.

4) 45k was pretty much what the Geoff Johns book with Barry was selling once it platoed. It's also more than 10k over the Venditti book average.

Now, cancelling a book usually takes at least 4 months of planning.

Wally was selling, and was selling great numbers for anything not Batman, when it was cancelled. Did Didio (read Didio as "DC's upper management, or whatever, for brevity) believe that bringing Barry back would sell double these numbers? Did he believe that people would love Barry so much that they'd forget all about Wally and his cast? Maybe. But if he did, he did so because of his personal preferences, not because the market indicated that in any way.

Hell, Rebirth is here, and in some ways it's still about cleaning up that mess.

[The Darknight Detective]

And they did go fanboyish.

1) Now, every character who's not Batman sells numbers that "could" justify their replacement.

2) During 2005, Wally's book sold, consistently, 45k books (sometimes more). It was never once pushed from the top 50 books, frequently on the top 30, and at 10 of the 12 months of the year, it was one of the five best selling DC books.

3) It was cancelled in early 2006.

4) 45k was pretty much what the Geoff Johns book with Barry was selling once it platoed. It's also more than 10k over the Venditti book average.

Now, cancelling a book usually takes at least 4 months of planning.

Wally was selling, and was selling great numbers for anything not Batman, when it was cancelled. Did Didio (read Didio as "DC's upper management, or whatever, for brevity) believe that bringing Barry back would sell double these numbers? Did he believe that people would love Barry so much that they'd forget all about Wally and his cast? Maybe. But if he did, he did so because of his personal preferences, not because the market indicated that in any way.

Hell, Rebirth is here, and in some ways it's still about cleaning up that mess.

By the time Wally's book was cancelled, sales were consistently below average. When that happened, he was in the zone where he could disappear. If he had stayed above average, things would have been different. It stinks, but that's just basic management, BD.