"The Flash Is Not About Tragedy": Wally West Appreciation! (NO NUWALLY BASHING!!!)

[The Darknight Detective]

Let me be clear here: I have no doubt there are numerous examples of people at DC since the '30s who have deliberately tried to sabotage certain characters for a variety of reasons. I only believe they can be found at the lower levels of management or the creators themselves. I just can't believe any person would care more about a fictional character than staying employed at the highest level, that's all. That just doesn't compute to me.

[BohemiaDrinker]

By the time Wally's book was cancelled, sales were consistently below average. When that happened, he was in the zone where he could disappear. If he had stayed above average, things would have been different. It stinks, but that's just basic management, BD.

The first time? No, it wasn't.

His last issue sold over 42k copies and was the 42nd most sold comic that month, among all publishers. The one before that sold 41k, 50th (lowest point in 2 years, cancelling already announced). The one before that, 45k, 35th in the toplist.

I'm not making this up to favor a character, the numbers are out there, it only takes looking.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Let me be clear here: I have no doubt there are numerous examples of people at DC since the '30s who have deliberately tried to sabotage certain characters for a variety of reasons. I only believe they can be found at the lower levels of management or the creators themselves.

Not really the case. Just look at Barry Allen's death in the eighties or Bart's transition from Impulse to Kid Flash and then Flash. Both cases had every writer worth a look fighting against them, and were ordered top-down. In Barry's case, he was going to die, and that was it. Whatever Cary Bates, Marv Wolfman and George Pérez did to save him was meaningless; he had a kill order over his head, and that came from the higher levels of management.

In Bart's case, we had Waid and Johns against turning him into Kid Flash, and fighting very hard to preventing him becoming the Flash; but it didn't suffice because, again, that order came from the higher levels of management (according to Waid, from Didio himself). And now we know that that was the case because Bart was just a píece in a board designed top bring Barry back (according to Didio himself, several occasions).

I just can't believe any person would care more about a fictional character than staying employed at the highest level, that's all. That just doesn't compute to me.

And do you believe that, even if he completely screwed "Flash", Dan Didio would be fired? With Inifnite Crisis, Green Lantern Rebirth, a Grant Morrison exclusive and so on under his belt? His job was never at stake because of neither this particular franchise, nor because of other stuff he experimented with.

Guy had carté blanche and used it.

I don't get why this is so hards to believe, if even himself has spoken about it more than once.

[Dataweaver]

I'm pretty sure that Didio never considered the possibility that his choices might lead to him being fired. Heck, I doubt that it ever crossed his mind that what he was doing would prove unpopular. Even as sales drifted downward over his first decade in charge, there were always other explanations available for the gradual sales slump. It wasn't until a 2015(?) comic Con when he noticed that the audience was almost entirely disinterested in what DC was doing that he finally got an inkling of the damage that his policies were doing; and his response was DCYou.

Here's the thing about DCU Rebirth: it's Johns' baby, not Didio's. And Johns now has enough influence to push his vision of the DCU over Didio's vision.

This isn't about professionalism vs. fanboyism. Of the two of them, I'd credit Didio with a bit more professionalism than Johns. But if anything, that's what's working in Johns' favor right now: Johns actually cares about the DCU's characters; Didio tends to view them as icons first and foremost, and only secondarily as people. Right near the beginning, he very nearly killed off Nightwing on the theory that he could never go back to being Robin and would never advance to bring Batman and so he was disposable. Granted, he eventually saw the light where Dick Grayson was concerned after extensive lobbying from just about everyone he encountered; but I mention it because it's illustrative of his overall mindset. It's the reason why the original Titans generation had such a hard time under his editorship.

I'm not saying that Johns is ideal; he totally owns the current state of affairs in the Superman titles. But for the most part, Johns prefers an approach that involves expanding on the foundation you have instead of tearing up the foundation to replace it with something more to your liking. Didio's response to the failure of DCYou was to end the New52; Johns' response was DCU Rebirth.

[The Darknight Detective]

Not really the case. Just look at Barry Allen's death in the eighties or Bart's transition from Impulse to Kid Flash and then Flash. Both cases had every writer worth a look fighting against them, and were ordered top-down. In Barry's case, he was going to die, and that was it. Whatever Cary Bates, Marv Wolfman and George Pérez did to save him was meaningless; he had a kill order over his head, and that came from the higher levels of management.

What were Barry's sales figures compared to the average number by the time the kill order was issued?

And do you believe that, even if he completely screwed "Flash", Dan Didio would be fired? With Inifnite Crisis, Green Lantern Rebirth, a Grant Morrison exclusive and so on under his belt? His job was never at stake because of neither this particular franchise, nor because of other stuff he experimented with.

Guy had carté blanche and used it.

I don't get why this is so hards to believe, if even himself has spoken about it more than once.

If Didio has carté blanche and "obviously" hates Wally, then he shouldn't be back, right?

[Dataweaver]

If Didio has carté blanche and "obviously" hates Wally, then he shouldn't be back, right?

Didio doesn't have carté blanche anymore, not since Johns gained enough influence to challenge him. And I wouldn't say that Didio hates Wally, per se; it's more that he sees Wally as superfluous. His attitude is more like “why would anyone want Wally when they can have Barry instead?”

Wally is back because of Johns, and in spite of Didio.

[Waterfall]

Didio is also the starter of "Wally West is not iconic ENOUGH" debacle with public mockeries to Wally's fans. I've always considered New52 Wally as a middle finger to fans honestly.

I have no idea where Johns is leading the ship now but best case scenario is Post-Flash: Rebirth status quo with Negative Speed Force against Speed Force. He was also building up something with Kadabra against Zooms, which is probably the reason he picked Kadabra as the first villain of Titans.

[PennyDreadful]

OG Wally had a pretty cool supporting cast from Messner-Loebs onward. Glad Chunk is back (albiet as NuWally's classmate).

The "iconic" designation applies mainly to the Trinity at this point rather than, say, the Green Lanterns, Flashes, Batgirls, Atoms, and various incarnations of Hawkman. That's my opinion.

Also my opinion: Starfire and Raven belong in the main Titans book, rather than Teen Titans. But that's another story.

I'd rather not rehash the details of what happened 5-10 years ago. I'd prefer to wait for the inevitable book about the new 52 years that is bound to be written one day.

[BohemiaDrinker]

What were Barry's sales figures compared to the average number by the time the kill order was issued?

We don't have comprehensive sales numbers from back in the eighties, sadly. There are rankings, though and, as long as DC characters were concerned, Barry wasn't really ion a tough spot.

However, we do have extensive interviews about the state of affairs from both Cary Bates and Marv Wolfman. Bates ended up extending "Trial of Barry Allen" for 2 years because, by the start of story, thew kill order had already been issued, and he saw as if beginning another arc was futile. Wolfman, along with the "backdoor" he put in COIE, also presented a pitch for a rebooted Barry Allen, one that addressed all the complaints from editorial.Didn't work either; they wanted Barry dead no matter that.

If Didio has carté blanche and "obviously" hates Wally, then he shouldn't be back, right?

"Had" carté blanché, not "has". And notice that I never said that he "hates Wally", as I don't think he does. What I said - and so did he - is that he had an agenda towards bringing Barry back and reinstating him as the Flash, with no characters competing for the spot. I also said that "sales" were not the main motivation, and to reach that conclusion we need only to look at both Wally and Barry sales numbers within comparable periods: they're pretty much the same and, alone, wouldn't justify the cumulative reception DC had. The madate that left Wally MIA for over seven years had nothing to do with "hating Wally" and everything to do with "Forcing people to accept Barry trough lack of options." It didn't take, obviously (not that people didn't accept Barry, but the questions didn't disappear as Didio said they would in 2009).

And yes, Wally is back now: and he is, in the current configuration, as refuge from another Earth and etc, because he pretty much represents the attempt to fix the mistakes Didio made. If you watch thew Rebirth press-conference from the announcement, you'll notice that although Didio is there, he is played down the whole event - even joked at multiple times - in favor of Johns. That's "damage control". Long term, Didio's vision damaged the brand, and DC is now course correcting that. However, even in this particular case, Didio's job is not at stake; because his job entails much, much more than setting the tone or direction of the books, and he's incredibly competent on those areas.

[Lee]

In Bart's case, we had Waid and Johns against turning him into Kid Flash, and fighting very hard to preventing him becoming the Flash;

Waid was against Bart becoming Kid Flash.

Waid and Johns were both against Bart becoming The Flash.

But where did you hear that Johns was against Bart becoming Kid Flash?

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Waid was against Bart becoming Kid Flash.

Waid and Johns were both against Bart becoming The Flash.

But where did you hear that Johns was against Bart becoming Kid Flash?

It's easy to assume that, since Geoff Johns actually wrote Bart's transformation into Kid-Flash, he was in favor of it. But I've never heard of him actually disparaging Bart as Impulse, so I guess it's possible he was just working with a mandate handed to him. But yeah, I'd like to see a link if possible if he actually fought against it.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Waid was against Bart becoming Kid Flash.

Waid and Johns were both against Bart becoming The Flash.

But where did you hear that Johns was against Bart becoming Kid Flash?

It's easy to assume that, since Geoff Johns actually wrote Bart's transformation into Kid-Flash, he was in favor of it. But I've never heard of him actually disparaging Bart as Impulse, so I guess it's possible he was just working with a mandate handed to him. But yeah, I'd like to see a link if possible if he actually fought against it.

My bad, I edited my post and left that "and Johns" there by mistake. Johns, AFAIK, didn't fight that decision, but also didn't make it:

WELLS: Eventually, Impulse gave way to Kid Flash and Kid Flash, in turn, morphed into an adult Flash. Do you think those changes necessarily served Bart Allen well?

WAID: Nah. Listen, Geoff Johns and I made our peace about this. I love Geoff. Geoff’s one of my best friends, and Geoff is an incredibly talented writer and is the only writer alive who loves these characters as much as I do. And I don’t blame him for paving over the Impulse identity. The shoehorning of Impulse into Kid Flash was, as I understand it, not his idea. It was a wrongheaded edict passed down by an editor that never got the character and has made it his mission to purge DC of anything even remotely fun and lighthearted. But even as Kid Flash, he was still largely recognizable as Bart.

And then he became the Flash, and a more boneheaded move you couldn’t have made with that character. Geoff and I fought against it, we fought like you wouldn’t believe. Steve Wacker, who was slated to be the original editor, Geoff, me…we all fought the good fight, knowing beyond any shadow of a doubt that squeezing Bart into that costume would go against absolutely everything about that character. And we lost. We lost every step of the way. Ultimately, someone else’s ego outweighed my opinion about what Bart would and wouldn’t do, but that’s how it often goes with corporate-owned heroes and is the price you pay dealing in them. Ask Keith Giffen sometime how many lectures he’s had to endure about what Lobo “would and wouldn’t do.” So, in their infinite wisdom, DC Editorial made Bart The Flash, and that relaunch was one of the greatest critical failures in all of DC publishing history.

Bolded the part about ego 'cause it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

[Lee]

It's absolutely true that DC editorial/management will sometimes push one charcater under a bus in order to service another character, or their creative vision for the DC line. I don't think any of us are arguing that to be untrue.

This tangent began with the statement "DC wants Titans to fail" (apparently because it got smaller ad space than another comic in a promotional pamphlet).

Will DC mess around with a character for what they perceive to be the greater good? Sure, sometimes. Will DC greenlight a series and then immediately and intentionally do everything in their power to make sure it sells poorly, just so they can get the satisfaction of cancelling it? No. That's fucking ridiculous.

[Dataweaver]

I tend to agree, with the caveat that DC isn't a single individual, nor a hive-mind that always proceeds in lock-step. The original contention was that Johns arranged for Titans to get the green light using his newfound influence, and that while Johns is busy taking care of DC's television properties, Didio is looking to sabotage Titans. I don't buy it, largely because recent events indicate a more subdued and humble Didio than has been the case over nearly a decade; but I can see how some might get the impression that he doesn't like Rebirth and is attempting to undermine it while he can.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I tend to agree, with the caveat that DC isn't a single individual, nor a hive-mind that always proceeds in lock-step. The original contention was that Johns arranged for Titans to get the green light using his newfound influence, and that while Johns is busy taking care of DC's television properties, Didio is looking to sabotage Titans. I don't buy it, largely because recent events indicate a more subdued and humble Didio than has been the case over nearly a decade; but I can see how some might get the impression that he doesn't like Rebirth and is attempting to undermine it while he can.

Yeah. The fact of the matter is that, in this case, Didio was wrong. He was undoubtedly wrong, sales and specially public opinion began to reflect that more and more and, at one point, the only way to regain consumer trust was to publicly go and say "we screwed up. Give us a chance, and we'll fix it." And Wally was the max symbol not only of the post-Crisis continuity; because of how screwed over he was, he was also the symbol of Didio's shenanigans about "iconic" and "redundancy" and whatnot.

Not bringing him back would seem hollow. Bringing him back to screw him over again would probably generate a backlash worse than any that came before it. Right now, subpar costume aside, Wally is safer than he ever was on any other point of Didio's tenure; fuckng with him now would be like killing Hal Jordan again right after GL:Rebirth.

And Barry is the Flash now, and also safe for the foreseeable future, so Didio got what he wanted anyway.

All that said,what kept Wally away for so long (and also led to nuWally and stuff) was, no doubt, Didio's ego.