"The Flash Is Not About Tragedy": Wally West Appreciation! (NO NUWALLY BASHING!!!)

[Assam]

That's a really unpopular opinion. Wolfman & Perez's run kicks any Titans and Teen Titans run after it. You can even say every Titans and Teen Titans run are trying to capture the magic of that run. While Geoff's run is well loved by a lot of people and is in a lot of recommended reading list. It did tweak the personalities of Tim and friends from their Young Justice day, but it also helped to mature them. In the end it's just personal opinions. Judas Contract is one of the best thing I read. It will be great to have more stories like that.

I know its an unpopular opinion but its one I hold true. Wolfman and Perez's run is just so bleh in my opinion. Their creations, Cyborg, Starfire and Raven being incredibly boring under their pen (Although the friendship between Donna and Kory was a highlight), and within the comics NO ONE has ever managed to make Raven and Cyborg interesting IMO, Gar in any incarnation where he isn't more mature (Like in his mini) I find incredibly irritating, and Wolfman's Wally, while the first time the character had a distinct personality, was awful. And their stories all just struck me as so generic. Yes, they had Judas Contract and Terror of Trigon. Those stories are...okay, I guess. None of it matches up for me to Grayson's excellent take on the Fab5 and their relationships, the way they wrote Kory, the continued development given to one of my personal favorites, Argent, the intricacy of their storytelling and of course the presence of Lian Harper.

As for Johns, I know its well loved by many, as it got a lot of people into reading comics. That doesn't change the fact that the stories were trite and Johns screwed up every character he touched, especially Risk, Rose Wilson and the YJ4, and no, he wasn't maturing them, he was replacing them with body snatchers. Of those 6 characters, Tim is the only one who acted like himself even remotely after Johns got his hands on him. (Kon too, but only after his resurrection.)

[Potanical Pardon]

I'm with you, man, though I did really enjoy Wolfman and Perez very, very much.

Gar only got interesting when he got older and expanded his powers. And I refuse to call him anything but Changeling. Cyborg finally got interesting and a personality when he went gold. Raven finally got interesting once she got older and darker/lighter. Nothing can ever make Starfire interesting, imo.

Then Johns undid all of it. And made the YJ generation duplicates of teen Donna, Wally and Dick. Bart was a genius and idiot savant, TT undid everything the Impulse solo established about that - how everyone saw him as immature or goofy but he had layers and depth...and was actually incredibly intelligent. Kid Flash Bart just took the immature superficial aspect and ran with it as something to overcome. Tim became Batman-lite minus Dick's daddy issues. Cassie turned into a cheerleader instead of the leader she just grew into being. Superboy/Kon - that's fine. He was annoying, couldn't shut up about TTK, dorky and a dbag from Reign of Superman through his own series and Ravers up till PAD fixed him. And Johns' Kon-El was great.

I like and miss Argent too. I have a soft-spot for she and post-Zero Hour New Titans characters - like them all. The rest of the Jurgens Titans - meh. Rose Wilson...wtf happened there? I'm cool with all the changes and updates to Jericho, but Rose? One second she was sweet and babysitting Roy's kid and the next she's completely psycho, obsessed with her father and creepy shades of Terra I. I miss when DC's biggest problems continuity-wise were things like "Is Terra II, Terra I?" Now it's every character in their catalogue. Things happened organically as did world-building. Now we're all retcon happy and why even bother, I'm going to write my version without any transition at all.

[Assam]

I like and miss Argent too. I have a soft-spot for she and post-Zero Hour New Titans characters - like them all. The rest of the Jurgens Titans - meh. Rose Wilson...wtf happened there? I'm cool with all the changes and updates to Jericho, but Rose? One second she was sweet and babysitting Roy's kid and the next she's completely psycho, obsessed with her father and creepy shades of Terra I. I miss when DC's biggest problems continuity-wise were things like "Is Terra II, Terra I?" Now it's every character in their catalogue. Things happened organically as did world-building. Now we're all retcon happy and why even bother, I'm going to write my version without any transition at all.

Argent was definitely the best of the bunch of the Jurgens Titans, and its not even close. Pretty easy to see why Grayson and Faerber had her as a mainstay on the team. I also really liked Isaiah for the year he was on the team; he really hit the right spot for me. Risk I also really like...though more now than when I first read the book because of how much I feel bad for his character, and how much I LOATHE what Johns did to him, making him into a villain, and a joke via having Prime rip BOTH of his arms off. Prysm and Fringe? The weaker characters definitely, but I've seen much worse. Overall, I consider the Jurgens run my favorite book to be called Teen Titans. (Teenage Ray Palmer and Roy were also both excellently written here.)

And yeah, totally with you on Rose. I loved her in Faerber's run, but Johns threw that all away, like most things. He had a hand-wave explanation of, "This is what she's like now after getting over her dad's drugging of her", but...no. Just, no. (TBF though, no female character got worse treatment from Johns than Cassie, as you addressed.)

If you want to continue this conversation, lets bring it over to the Titans thread. Sort of clogging up Wally's here.

[Potanical Pardon]

Cool, moving my response to over there.

[stephens2177]

I love Wally the character,and no damn pacemaker has or will stop him from running.

[TheSupernaut]

I love Wally the character,and no damn pacemaker has or will stop him from running.

He was born to run after all.

[Adset]

i was thinking the other day how incredibly spoiled we were with volume two. from messner-loebs to wade to johns, we basically got twenty years of uninterrupted great flash comics. of course there were fill-ins and that unfortunate break after johns left to make bart the flash, but by and large, volume two kicked much ass. the closest thing i can think of a multi-creator extended run of excellence on a single mainstream superhero book (or character) is daredevil, which has gone from bendis to brubaker to diggle to wade to soule and (imo) hasn't had a weak run since the marvel knights relaunch in the late 90s.

anyway, i used to have *most* of volume two in floppies, then (insert long story here) i didn't, now i've got them all digitally and i recently bought and re-read the first two flash by mark wade trades and was thinking back on this series. i don't think the current flash series is high art, but after the new 52 series (which i thought was hot garbage through and through -- yes, manapul's art was pretty but you can't tell me that run was readable) it's nice to have a monthly (or twice monthly, i guess) flash series i actually enjoy reading again. first time since johns left the first time, really.

i miss linda. i could do without the kids, i suppose, but i'm also a kingdom come fanboy and always liked the idea of iris growing into KC flash before our eyes. and then, of course, wally and his whole family stopped existing for a decade.

[stephens2177]

Can we agree that Wally,in this shitty spot with his heart has atleast turned it "a lil" positive with his ability to stop time around him.

His prowess with the speedforce is now so developed that it works without a conscious act to make it happen.

[Assam]

Can we agree that Wally,in this shitty spot with his heart has atleast turned it "a lil" positive with his ability to stop time around him.

His prowess with the speedforce is now so developed that it works without a conscious act to make it happen.

See, thing is, maybe this would be cool...if it wasn't so OBVIOUS that the only reason this was being done was so Barry could be unquestionably "The Fastest Man Alive".

[Jekyll]

i was thinking the other day how incredibly spoiled we were with volume two. from messner-loebs to wade to johns, we basically got twenty years of uninterrupted great flash comics. of course there were fill-ins and that unfortunate break after johns left to make bart the flash, but by and large, volume two kicked much ass. the closest thing i can think of a multi-creator extended run of excellence on a single mainstream superhero book (or character) is daredevil, which has gone from bendis to brubaker to diggle to wade to soule and (imo) hasn't had a weak run since the marvel knights relaunch in the late 90s.

anyway, i used to have *most* of volume two in floppies, then (insert long story here) i didn't, now i've got them all digitally and i recently bought and re-read the first two flash by mark wade trades and was thinking back on this series. i don't think the current flash series is high art, but after the new 52 series (which i thought was hot garbage through and through -- yes, manapul's art was pretty but you can't tell me that run was readable) it's nice to have a monthly (or twice monthly, i guess) flash series i actually enjoy reading again. first time since johns left the first time, really.

i miss linda. i could do without the kids, i suppose, but i'm also a kingdom come fanboy and always liked the idea of iris growing into KC flash before our eyes. and then, of course, wally and his whole family stopped existing for a decade.

Yep! Super spoiled the 90s - mid 2000s run on flash was epic. I have said this before but what made it so great was two things:
1. the maturation of Wally. We really got to see him grow up and become his own hero.
2. The Flash family, Jay, Bart, Max, Jesse, etc so many loveable characters!

But we shall probably never have this again. I am not a Barry basher, as I rally like him as well, but his stories since they have brought him back have been mediocre at best. However, the latest series is starting to intrigue me with the reverse flash stuff.

We won't even speak about the hot pile of crap the new 52 was.

[stephens2177]

See, thing is, maybe this would be cool...if it wasn't so OBVIOUS that the only reason this was being done was so Barry could be unquestionably "The Fastest Man Alive".

Barry was always gonna be "the fastest blah blah alive",Wally was always gonna be 2nd fiddle,we already knew that.

This new power takes Barry's ability to run and makes it pointless,Wally isn't the fastest,he is "the only one moving" now.

DC might have wanted to screw Wally over,but all they did was make him more of a unbeatable beast

[Waterfall]

There is nothing good about being stuck in a containment book.

[stephens2177]

There is nothing good about being stuck in a containment book.

Well I APPRECIATE Wally,and he is clearly the most powerful person on the team,even when they tried to screw him.

I would rather him be in a book every month showing off how badass he is,instead of us all bitching about the "real" Wally still not back

[phantom1592]

Can we agree that Wally,in this shitty spot with his heart has atleast turned it "a lil" positive with his ability to stop time around him.

His prowess with the speedforce is now so developed that it works without a conscious act to make it happen.

What do you mean?

How is this any different with what Flashes have always done? Barry first realized he was a speedster when the waitress dropped her tray and the whole world frozen in time while carefully placed everything back in order and time started up again.

slowing/stopping Time is how things always were from a speedster's point of view. What new thing did they do now?

[stephens2177]

What do you mean?

How is this any different with what Flashes have always done? Barry first realized he was a speedster when the waitress dropped her tray and the whole world frozen in time while carefully placed everything back in order and time started up again.

slowing/stopping Time is how things always were from a speedster's point of view. What new thing did they do now?

He isn't moving or vibrating at a accelerated level,his heart just starts beating to fast and everything around him just stops.yeah it looks like it does when they speed up their perceptions,but Wally can now actually stop time around himself,that means not just himself sped up,but freezing everything around him..it's not speed,it's time

And yeah before any one who didn't read it asks or wonders,there was a superspeed sterling bad guy frozen in time also,so it works on speedsters also.

So Wally has speed,kinetic energy,and time abilities now,while others have the speed and maybe a few kinetic energy abilities.

Wally is on another level now

I wonder how it would work with Thawne