Superman & Wonder Woman #8 (SPOILERS)

[DochaDocha]

Why I'm not that excited about communing with animals (skip to 0:32):



Anyway, don't take it too seriously.

[Dr. Hurt]

Diana herself said that the way she perceived her role as God of War, and what she wanted to do with it, was that it could be used to change perceptions about war. So, if her way of doing that is going to be just getting inside people's heads and rewiring them as easily as she did with the soldiers, not only would it be a short job to be done, it also raises troubling questions about free will. I find it interesting that you mention cool action scenes, because if Diana truly can just order armies to beat bad guys that suggests she could prevent or win every conflict in which she and her teammates -- or anyone person or country -- take part as easily as making one side drop their weapons and sign treaties. But then what? The war is won, but the causes of that war wouldn't have been addressed; so the cycle continues. Accordingly, the specific way Diana used her God of War powers in this issue is a shallow exposure to what the role means and not the insightful and intriguing peek at it that Dr. Poison described it as.

"I can feel war. I understand it. Why it happens, where it happens. [...] I want to change the idea, if I can. In some ways, I get to decide how the world sees war. If I can end it forever, and if I can't, maybe I can pass along some of my understanding. Make if more an an absolute last resort."

In short, I was not questioning that part of the powers one would have as God of War would be to influence soldiers' minds. What I was questioning was the value of the insight into Diana's new god of War status and abilities Dr. Poison praised Soule for providing. Being able to influence soldiers isn't surprising or insightful. Also, contrary to what Dr. Poison believes, it isn't that intriguing either when the real intriguing things about Diana's God of War role were set up earlier by Diana herself and for which ordering soldiers around is not a good illustration. At best, I can say that Dr. Poison would be right that it was insightful and intriguing, but only inasmuch as it exposed some disturbing implications (some of which brett has explained above) of Diana's new powers.

You make some very good points, and i think it requires a great writer to be able to fully explore all the GoW aspect and how it works. It's very very complicated.

I think though that as far as the standard issues in the DCU go, i dont expect them to go into great lengths about it. I mean, say WW guest stars in the Aquaman book. The Aquaman writer will want to use some cool GoW power without needing to delve into the intricate details of it all. "She's the GoW, she can control soldiers. Yay, they beat up the bad guy, time to move on to the next issue!" You know, the simple stuff.

About free will, good point here as well, but 1) she already has a lasso that can bypass free will and force someone to tell the truth, 2) she is a goddess. Gods come with powers that can shape our realities. Poseidon could drown the world for example. Here it just seems like she's the top general and she's giving orders to her soldiers. She's not messing with his brain, making him forget, changing his memories, or whatever. She's the god of war, she's the general of generals.

[Dr. Hurt]

Why I'm not that excited about communing with animals (skip to 0:32):



Anyway, don't take it too seriously.

That part at the end... It's ironic because Batman adopted a kid who tried to steal the wheel of the batmobile.

[brettc1]

He talked to her IN HIS MIND. He became aware that he was talking to WAR ITSELF. She KNEW HIS NAME. He somehow instinctively trusted her.

He knew damn well this wasn't an ordinary civilian woman.

And I don't see ANYTHING that proves his will was no longer his own. Same for the other troops. There is certainly nothing that PROVES he was mind controlled. YOU are simply jumping to that conclusion because it feeds your "Wonder Woman is ruined forever" mentality.

He knew who she was? That must be why he asked who she was.

Yes, he suddenly realized he was talking to War. And he is a soldier, and if War give him an order he has to do what War says. He can't disobey. He never even considers the possibility.

Also, just checked out Superman Doomed, which I assume you referred to earlier. Diana's sword is ineffectual, and Doomsday never lands a clean punch. Had Superman not turned up Wonder Woman would have been toast.

Again. :wink:

[Vanguard-01]

He knew who she was? That must be why he asked who she was.

Yes, he suddenly realized he was talking to War. And he is a soldier, and if War give him an order he has to do what War says. He can't disobey. He never even considers the possibility.

Also, just checked out Superman Doomed, which I assume you referred to earlier. Diana's sword is ineffectual, and Doomsday never lands a clean punch. Had Superman not turned up Wonder Woman would have been toast.

Again. :wink:

You just keep on deluding yourself, Brett.

I'm done talking with you.

Have fun assuming the worst about everything Wonder Woman-related.

[brettc1]

Evidence and facts, Vangaurd. I cant help it if they are inconvenient.

[Dr. Hurt]

He knew who she was? That must be why he asked who she was.

Yes, he suddenly realized he was talking to War. And he is a soldier, and if War give him an order he has to do what War says. He can't disobey. He never even considers the possibility.

As someone who has been in the army (9 months of mandatory service in Greece ), you dont get to consider any possibilities, or ask any questions. When someone has one more stripe on his shoulder than you do, and he orders you to do something, you do it. No questions asked. Only later can you question him through legal proceedings. But first you will have completed the task assigned to you.

To me, it didnt look like mind control, more like "hey noob, i'm the super duper general, wake up and follow my orders." Obi Wan didnt need to convince those sand people that he is someone to tell them what do, because he actually mind wipped them.

[brettc1]

As someone who has been in the army (9 months of mandatory service in Greece ), you dont get to consider any possibilities, or ask any questions. When someone has one more stripe on his shoulder than you do, and he orders you to do something, you do it. No questions asked. Only later can you question him through legal proceedings. But first you will have completed the task assigned to you.

I don't see any stripes on Diana's admittedly fabulous coat.

And while I have direct experience, I do have doubts the orders of a captain could automatically overrule those of a general just because they were the last ones a private heard. There would circumstances on the battlefield that would make that sensible but they don't seem to apply here.

[DochaDocha]

He knew who she was? That must be why he asked who she was.

Yes, he suddenly realized he was talking to War. And he is a soldier, and if War give him an order he has to do what War says. He can't disobey. He never even considers the possibility. He instinctively trusted her? Well instinct is what happens when higher order thinking goes out the window. Plus she is having a telepathic conversation with him. If this were Professor X or Emma Frost it would be perfectly obvious what was going on.

It's mind control. I'm not the only person here who can see it.

Also, just checked out Superman Doomed, which I assume you referred to earlier. Diana's sword is ineffectual, and Doomsday never lands a clean punch. Had Superman not turned up Wonder Woman would have been toast.

Again.

He didn't know who she was, but once she said she was War, he had no questions. It's one of those sci-fi things where the concept of War personified is something a character might have some a priori knowledge of, but wouldn't necessarily recognize War upon meeting for the first time. So WW says she's War, and a light goes off in his head and he trusts her. There's not a lot of real-world examples of this I can think of, but I've seen just enough sci-fi and fantasy stuff that it's not a foreign concept to me, either.

Anyway, since I doubt the power will last, I think its coolness outweighs the potential problems. I also say this as a guy who didn't have many issues with how the Silver Age was notorious for making up powers for Superman left and right.

[Dr. Hurt]

I don't see any stripes on Diana's admittedly fabulous coat.

That's why she had to show herself to him, the way Athena revealed herself to Odysseus for example.

And while I have direct experience, I do have doubts the orders of a captain could automatically overrule those of a general just because they were the last ones a private heard. There would circumstances on the battlefield that would make that sensible but they don't seem to apply here.

I dont understand what you mean here. It doesnt matter who has the last word, what matters is the rank. Now on the battlefield with all the explosions, a private might make a mistake. But the rule says that the highest rank overrules the lower one.

In any case, here WW is a godly general of generals. You dont overrank, or overrule that, just like a shark cant overrule Poseidon.

[brettc1]

That's why she had to show herself to him, the way Athena revealed herself to Odysseus for example.
I dont understand what you mean here. It doesnt matter who has the last word, what matters is the rank. Now on the battlefield with all the explosions, a private might make a mistake. But the rule says that the highest rank overrules the lower one.

In any case, here WW is a godly general of generals. You dont overrank, or overrule that, just like a shark cant overrule Poseidon.

Yes. And he defers to her higher rank because of the mind control telling him she has it. "You're the god of war, and I HAVE to obey your commands."

It's like Apollo getting his three oracle girls to prophecy for him and then die. Free will goes out the window in the face of godly influence.

If we see WW give an order to a soldier and they question it, then we can reassess the conclusion. But for right now it all points to mind control.

[DochaDocha]

Well, that's one way to interpret it. I think the soldier just recognizes he's in the presence of a higher being and feels compelled to defer. I suppose that also is one way of saying "free will goes out the window in the face of godly influence," but I don't agree with the strongly negative connotation here.

[Dr. Hurt]

It's quite possible that she mind controls them. I mean in the western world we dont have a god of war so that american soldier should be confused. If it was Jesus or something, he'd know how to respond, but there is no GoW for him. So i guess that there is some mind control here, at least in the sense that the soldier is exposed to her godly truth, understands it, and then gets with the program, like how a greek soldier who already knows Ares would.

The other option is Diana simply having control over the soldiers. I dont mind it. It's not something she chose, it's a power she inherited and in this case she didnt mind control soldiers to kill anyone, just to let Lois go. We see how in her own book she's asking the Amazons to follow her as opposed to forcing them to do it, so i'd say she wouldnt use this power in such a way.

[Step]

Well if she did mind control, I don't see why she would have this big convo with him to tell him she is the God of War and she wouldn't just tell him to release her.

[Sacred Knight]

Also, just checked out Superman Doomed, which I assume you referred to earlier. Diana's sword is ineffectual, and Doomsday never lands a clean punch. Had Superman not turned up Wonder Woman would have been toast.

Again.

You say you're talking facts and evidence, but this is neither. The sword is not ineffective. It pierces him and he bleeds. Or steams. Or whatever the hell that poisonous matter was made of. But it did some damage, as he does keel over. That it didn't put him down doesn't make it an ineffectual attack. And since as you say, Doomsday never gets to counter-attack and the fight doesn't continue from there, its far from a fact that she'd be toast.