Superman & Wonder Woman #8 (SPOILERS)

[brettc1]

Are you just asking for any comic book example in which soldiers defy the god of war? How about Perez's Wonder Woman 6, in which Michaelis, Trevor and Candy side with Wonder Woman against Ares and his pawn Tolliver? Tolliver had let himself become Ares' pawn, but the others would not. Influential as Ares can be, it's still a choice.

I'm asking you to show where a mortal soldier in this continuity defied the direct telepathic orders of the god of war.

The solicit for the SM/WW Annual says all the earth's heroes, "super" and not, will be against Diana. Presumably, many of those heroes can be considered heroes. Hopefully, we'll see if all of them find that Diana speaking in their minds takes choice away. I doubt that it would.

Only soldiers, remember.

"Natural" and "artifically" are important words there. Starfox's power, as far as I know, is not "artificial" and is "natural" to him, though it is beyond what would be "natural" to a human being. There's probably no existing law to regulate that. Perhaps if there were people with extraordinarily potent pheromones, there'd be legislation to require them to disclose that before having relations with people. Sure, you could argue that a a god should disclose her godhood before giving orders; but Diana does that, unless you're really counting "What did she do?" as an order, which seems a bit legalistic to me. I'm not sure it really is even classified information; I find it doubtful that the military could justify classifying their reasons for detaining a reporter in circumstances like these.

You're kidding about the military thing, right?

Also, your legal argue to basically exonerates Dr Psycho from any crime where he uses his natural telepathy to convince somebody to do something terrible.

"Immediate and total" isn't the same as "involuntary." Sometimes we make choices without taking time to think about them; that's not advisable, but they're still our choices.

so your argument here isn't that he's mind controlled! he's just incompetent.

Exactly.

Exactly. He's a soldier and she's war so he has to do what she says.

Just to be clear, your explanation is that he hears her talking in his mind and she reveals that she is war, and he understands that in being war she represents the best and most honourable ideals of war, and that in coming to this unspoken and possibly subconscious realisation he instantly realises that she is deserving of his trust, by which process he makes an immediate choice to follow her instructions to ignore his previous standing orders and release his prisoner.

My explanation is that he's a soldier and he has to obey the god of war.

And your explanation is the simple one.

Okay.

[Silvanus]

I'm asking you to show where a mortal soldier in this continuity defied the direct telepathic orders of the god of war.

Sure that would be specific enough? You don't want to limit me to sergeants or people whose last names begind with "M" or anything?

Why "in this continuity"? You've being using the example of Charles Xavier, who I believe has yet to make an appearance in NewDCU continuity. You justify it as an example from the same genre; well, that's just as true of Perez's Wonder Woman, right?

At the moment I can't really think of examples of war gods even giving telepathic orders in other comics, so I can't tell you whether they've been questioned or not. My Perez example was to show that war gods don't automatically win the allegiance of all mortal soldiers; if a direct order would have brought everyone under Ares' control, he probably would have given it, and if they can commit the equivalent of the military offense of mutiny against this god, they're probably capable of disobeying a direct order.

Again, I think your "simple math" is really just adding two non-sequitars:

1. Non-sequitar #1: Telepathy is sometimes used for mind control, so when we see telepathy, it always must be mind control.
2. Non-sequitar #2: The god of war has influence over soldiers, so whenever we see the god of war give an order, it must be mind control.

Add those two non-sequitars together, and you don't get one good argument; you get two non-sequitars.

By the way, out of curiosity, do you think Aleka can disobey Diana? If so, is she protected from mind control by her "immortal" life span, by being a "warrior" rather than a soldier (Even though both fall with his area of influence), or what? To be fair, perhaps she's not really "online" as god of war yet even though she has accepted the role; maybe she needs to put on the helmet or sit on the throne or learn to use the powers. But won't even you be surprised if Azzarello has Diana solve the problem of recalcitrant Amazons by mind-controling them?

You're kidding about the military thing, right?

You mean, do I think the U.S. military would try to keep its detention of a well-known U.S. reporter on U.S. soil a secret? All I can say is that it would be a pretty dumb thing to try. And again, Lois could have told Diana why she was arrested (though I don't know if she was aware that her eyes are glowing, which is pretty weal justification for an arrest, by the way), so I don't think answering that question was a big deal. Diana reveals her identity before asking the sarge to do anything important.

Also, your legal argue to basically exonerates Dr Psycho from any crime where he uses his natural telepathy to convince somebody to do something terrible.

As I said, I don't think our laws are set up to regulate telepathy. If it existed, we'd have to invent some laws. It's a little bit besides the point, because our real discussion is about ethics, not legalisms. But you brought a up a real-world legalistic distinction, so I thought I'd bring up the problem with applying it to superpowers.

so your argument here isn't that he's mind controlled! he's just incompetent.

I wouldn't say that. He's having a religious experience--meeting his professional mission in flesh and blood--and he makes an instantaneous choice. Seems understandable. I presume he would have taken longer, and probably made a different decision, if asked to commit murder or treason.

Exactly. He's a soldier and she's war so he has to do what she says.

Almost. He's a solider and she's war so he has chosen to do what she says.

Just to be clear, your explanation is that he hears her talking in his mind and she reveals that she is war, and he understands that in being war she represents the best and most honourable ideals of war, and that in coming to this unspoken and possibly subconscious realisation he instantly realises that she is deserving of his trust, by which process he makes an immediate choice to follow her instructions to ignore his previous standing orders and release his prisoner.

Sure, if you add up all my answers to your questions, it starts to sound complicated. Anything can be made to sound complicated if you take a microscope to it; you're saying, apparently, that she speaks in mind mind and reveals she is War even though she doesn't really have any reason to identify herself as the god of war because he would have to obey her commands for some reason even if he didn't know whom she was (or else he still has to come to an unspoken and possibly subconscious realization), and you're saying this even though oddly the god of war in his heyday never seized all military organizations and took over the world, as far as we know.

The simple version of my position is this: He's a soldier, she's War, he chooses to do what she says.

Let's wait for the annual and see if every soldier, among all those heroes standing against her, automatically obeys her no matter what--or if they have to make a choice.

[BlackFeath]

While this is not exactly a proof since there are some differences (the soldiers were dead and we can't really know if Ares was controlling them or they were following him willingly), I find this interesting:







Isn't it curious that Ares chose for his army warriors that seem to have his own idea of war? The old idea of war, when war was considered an opportunity to show your value, when what mothers said to their sons when they had to go to war was "Return with your shield or on it"?.
Now...I don't know if it is the right translation in English...but anyway...this is that old idea of war that you can see in the Iliad, the idea that you went to war to show you were a great warrior and you returned either victorious or dead.

This seems to be the idea of war that Ares personified, which is very different from the one we have today in general.
Now...maybe Ares chose those soldiers just because he thought they were the 'strongest', but it also can be that he chose them because they were the ones ready to follow him willingly since their own idea of war was Ares's.
(I find interesting that the First Born asks who would follow Ares. Knowing he is the god of war, if every soldiers was to follow him just because of that...why did he ask?).

[brettc1]

Excellent post. Thank you.

So here we have Spanish Conquistadors and Roman Legionaries fighting alongside Easy Company.

Are we really suggesting that the men of Easy trust war as much as two groups who butchered and enslaved their way across continents.

It would also be very rare to find a conquistador who was not a devout Catholic. Certainly those Crusader Knights seem a bit out of place.

But I digress. Ares here is apparently summoning a sort of psychic energy field, because the dead themselves belong to Hades. Though it's possible we may find out next issue he helped Ares out and that's why the FB attacked him.

Now you might ask why did he not just summon the standing British army? But Azz wrote this story months ago and the writing team outside WW's own book have their own ideas for what they want with the character. At a meta level the visual here is also much more impressive. While at a Silvanus level I would say psychic manifestations are harder to kill.

Oh yes, the FB's surprise - well he's not always the brightest star in the heavens, and it's not shocking Ares has a few tricks he never saw before he was imprisoned for millennia.

If indeed he and Ares ever met at all. It's possible he and his own army were obliterated before Ares birth. In Greek legends that would have been the third race of man, I think, who were destroyed by flood.

[BlackFeath]

Excellent post. Thank you.

So here we have Spanish Conquistadors and Roman Legionaries fighting alongside Easy Company.

Are we really suggesting that the men of Easy trust war as much as two groups who butchered and enslaved their way across continents.

It would also be very rare to find a conquistador who was not a devout Catholic. Certainly those Crusader Knights seem a bit out of place.

But I digress. Ares here is apparently summoning a sort of psychic energy field, because the dead themselves belong to Hades. Though it's possible we may find out next issue he helped Ares out and that's why the FB attacked him.

Now you might ask why did he not just summon the standing British army? But Azz wrote this story months ago and the writing team outside WW's own book have their own ideas for what they want with the character. At a meta level the visual here is also much more impressive. While at a Silvanus level I would say psychic manifestations are harder to kill.

Oh yes, the FB's surprise - well he's not always the brightest star in the heavens, and it's not shocking Ares has a few tricks he never saw before he was imprisoned for millennia.

I don't think the fact they are pagans or Catholic is of some weight. Whatever their religion is, they are soldiers, they know war, and they have their own idea of war, and even soldiers from very different ages and countries can have the same idea of war while being completely different under every other aspects.

Anyway, I'm not saying this is a proof of sort...in fact you are right, Soule may have his own idea different from Azzarello, but I just found interesting what was said.
That the First Born wondered what soldiers would follow him (yep, maybe Ares had new tricks? Buh...or it may be that the soldiers have to choose to follow the god of war and he can't force them. Nothing of sure =) , and then what Ares said:

"Belongs to the ages, when songs weren't sung about weakness. Every soldier here has a song". And then: "They are warriors as you are amazon. None of them died in battle, but grew old...heh...like me".

I just happened to see some similarities between this way to see war, and the one I think Ares originally personified and Ares himself.

[Silvanus]

Are we really suggesting that the men of Easy trust war as much as two groups who butchered and enslaved their way across continents.

"As much"? No, and not in the same way. Slavers and butchers of humans might have done War's bidding no matter whom or how he asked them to fight. I don't believe that the men of Easy Company would not have. Still, there could have been men of Easy Company who were passionate enough about serving their country at war and proud enough of the glorious service they provided that they might be available to War's call, whenever that call was in the name of a worthy cause.

Conquistadors and Crusaders were Catholics, indeed, but I think it can be said that many of them served War by their actions, even though they didn't have altars to Ares in their basements.

But I digress. Ares here is apparently summoning a sort of psychic energy field, because the dead themselves belong to Hades.

You know that saying, "Old soldiers don't die; they just fade away"? I think that's what Ares is saying about the soldiers, in a way. Maybe their bodies died, but their souls remained attached to glory and in regret for their comrades, and so they persisted in the songs that were sung about them and in War's service instead of fully moving on. Maybe (stepping out a little further on the tightrope of speculation) War's realm is like a halfway house for these not-quite-dead shades.

Though it's possible we may find out next issue he helped Ares out and that's why the FB attacked him.

Could be, but I think more likely the First Born attacked Hades so he can become the lord of the underworld and do what Hades had just mused about--use all the shades of the underworld as a renewable army. If so, we'll see whether she can turn at least some of those shades. That could be a pretty glorious and appropriate way for her to win,actually--if her ability to inspire able to reach and transform even some of the dead.

Now you might ask why did he not just summon the standing British army? But Azz wrote this story months ago and the writing team outside WW's own book have their own ideas for what they want with the character. At a meta level the visual here is also much more impressive. While at a Silvanus level I would say psychic manifestations are harder to kill.

That is indeed part of I what I would say. Also, Ares may not have as high an opinion of today's soldiers, as a group, since they grew up in an era in which supposedly songs are "sung about weakness."

[brettc1]

What I see with the telepathy and his compliance against his regular orders is a strong parallel between other instances of mental manipulation. It is entirely logical, lacking other facts, to suppose mind control. The other possibilities require the assumption of facts not in evidence.

The reason I am using Xavier's and not the previous version of Ares in this instance is that it was not clear that previously Ares power could affect all soldiers. In fact, the men and women he possessed were not even exclusively soldiers, as evidenced by the prostitute who duped Heracles into attacking the Amazons.

In Gods and Mortals, Ares can only influence mortals who actively embrace his desire for all out war leading to Armageddon. Azzarello's Ares is a very different character, likely with different powers in the same way we see Hermes and Apollo having different abilities. Perez Ares cannot be allowed to have total control over all soldiers because that would make the plot redundant - rather than a small band of Ares worshippers taking control of a few missiles the entire US and Soviet armed forces would have gone rogue all at once.

On the other hand Azzarello's war god sees the supposed purpose of war as to end conflict (necessary to justify placing him as Diana's mentor) so Soule can give him this power retroactively without compromising any prior plot lines.

I would say that accessing this power of control requires a conscious act of wil, the same Prof x needing to make a conscious choice to send his thoughts telepathically, though he can hear what others are thinking automatically. Consider also that this very issue sets the SM/WW story after the conclusion of Azzarello's run, giving Soule the wiggle room of Diana having time to learn more about her newly embraced godhood.

[BlackFeath]

What I see with the telepathy and his compliance against his regular orders is a strong parallel between other instances of mental manipulation. It is entirely logical, lacking other facts, to suppose mind control. The other possibilities require the assumption of facts not in evidence.

The reason I am using Xavier's and not the previous version of Ares in this instance is that it was not clear that previously Ares power could affect all soldiers. In fact, the men and women he possessed were not even exclusively soldiers, as evidenced by the prostitute who duped Heracles into attacking the Amazons.

In Gods and Mortals, Ares can only influence mortals who actively embrace his desire for all out war leading to Armageddon. Azzarello's Ares is a very different character, likely with different powers in the same way we see Hermes and Apollo having different abilities. Perez Ares cannot be allowed to have total control over all soldiers because that would make the plot redundant - rather than a small band of Ares worshippers taking control of a few missiles the entire US and Soviet armed forces would have gone rogue all at once.

On the other hand Azzarello's war god sees the supposed purpose of war as to end conflict (necessary to justify placing him as Diana's mentor) so Soule can give him this power retroactively without compromising any prior plot lines.

I would say that accessing this power of control requires a conscious act of wil, the same Prof x needing to make a conscious choice to send his thoughts telepathically, though he can hear what others are thinking automatically. Consider also that this very issue sets the SM/WW story after the conclusion of Azzarello's run, giving Soule the wiggle room of Diana having time to learn more about her newly embraced godhood.

But is it really placed after the end of the run? Judging by the conditions of London in issue 7, I'd say just after issue 23 but before what follows... Even if she hasn't accepted the throne among the Olympians yet, she is already god of war by then.
I hope we will have other hints on where to place this in continuity...

[brettc1]

But is it really placed after the end of the run? Judging by the conditions of London in issue 7, I'd say just after issue 23 but before what follows... Even if she hasn't accepted the throne among the Olympians yet, she is already god of war by then.
I hope we will have other hints on where to place this in continuity...

If you check Superman's dialogue in the apartment you will see he chastises Disna for not having allowed him to help out with the Firstborn, telling her that she might have died.

This could be interpreted as a bit of a backhand swipe at Azzarello's attitude towards the relationship, but more solidy it serves to establish the end of Azzarello's story as happening before the events in SM/WW #8.

I could be mistaken, but to me the it seemed like either a flash forward or an indication that the story will conclude in London.

[Silvanus]

If you check Superman's dialogue in the apartment you will see he chastises Disna for not having allowed him to help out with the Firstborn, telling her that she might have died.

This could be interpreted as a bit of a backhand swipe at Azzarello's attitude towards the relationship, but more solidy it serves to establish the end of Azzarello's story as happening before the events in SM/WW #8.

I read it this way too--but, come to think of it, Diana probably thought, or hoped, that her war with the First Born was over after issue 23. So really, couldn't she have said these words right after 23? Conversely, the rebuilding of London that started after 23 could still be continuing after the end fo Azzarello's run, so I don't think it's clear either way.

It is entirely logical, lacking other facts, to suppose mind control. The other possibilities require the assumption of facts not in evidence.

Suppose away, but one would need to make assumptions either way, and I don't think these arguments by analogy are getting us very far. Hopefully we'll find out more about Diana's god of war role--from Azzarello's perspective, at least--this week.

[BlackFeath]

If you check Superman's dialogue in the apartment you will see he chastises Disna for not having allowed him to help out with the Firstborn, telling her that she might have died.

This could be interpreted as a bit of a backhand swipe at Azzarello's attitude towards the relationship, but more solidy it serves to establish the end of Azzarello's story as happening before the events in SM/WW #8.

I could be mistaken, but to me the it seemed like either a flash forward or an indication that the story will conclude in London.

I read it this way too--but, come to think of it, Diana probably thought, or hoped, that her war with the First Born was over after issue 23. So really, couldn't she have said these words right after 23? Conversely, the rebuilding of Lingon that started after 23 could still be continuing after the end fo Azzarello's run, so I don't think it's clear wither way.



Suppose away, but one would need to make assumptions either way, and I don't think these arguments by analogy are getting us very far. Hopefully we'll find out more about Diana's god of war role--from Azzarello's perspective, at least--this week.

I could be mistaken, but to me the it seemed like either a flash forward or an indication that the story will conclude in London.

[/QUOTE]

Yes...I think it is not clear... Diana 'could have died' also in issue 23, since she fought without asking help the First Born after she had been put in the three famous days of coma xD, and after that the First Born was imprisoned by Apollo on Olympus, so he was defeated.

It's true that the work to rebuild London could still be on-going after the end of the war of Olympus since we don't really know how much time has passed. London destroyed again after so little time with another battle seems too much, though xD
On the other hand, though, the amazons fighting in London could be good to see xD

Anyway...since Hessia will appear in the next issue, maybe we will know something about the conditions of the Amazons, if they have already been restored or if they are still snakes.

[brettc1]

I read it this way too--but, come to think of it, Diana probably thought, or hoped, that her war with the First Born was over after issue 23. So really, couldn't she have said these words right after 23? Conversely, the rebuilding of Lingon that started after 23 could still be continuing after the end fo Azzarello's run, so I don't think it's clear wither way.

I agree its ambiguous, but it would fit better in the timeline if the events in the current issue were not being squeezed into the small time elapsing between #23 and now.

Suppose away, but one would need to make assumptions either way, and I don't think these arguments by analogy are getting us very far. Hopefully we'll find out more about Diana's god of war role--from Azzarello's perspective, at least--this week.

Even if we did it would be inconclusive, since its Soule's writing in question.

My hypothesis is that if Soule were to answer honestly what he had in mind when he wrote the scene with Diana and the soldier, that it was a form of mind control [since a hypothesis has to be testable ]

[Silvanus]

I agree its ambiguous, but it would fit better in the timeline if the events in the current issue were not being squeezed into the small time elapsing between #23 and now.

Yeah--thinking about it a little more, I remembered that the main reason SM/WW 8 seemed to me to come after Azz's run wasn't so much Superman's "you could have been killed" line about the First Born, but the fact that Wonder Woman calls herself god of war and uses capabilities associated with that rule. I don't think she would have done that before the end of issue 29, when she declares herself god of war in order to stand against the First Born.