Renew Your Vows Sales Predictions

[boots]

The same could be said about a single Spider-Man, or the comic book format in general.

not really. one is a locked status quo the other (in theory) is fluid.

Though I'd postulate it has much more to do with editorial preference to a status quo

what is that preference though? is it personal or professional? why have they made it?

consider all the factors that go into that choice on their side and compare it to all the factors that tend to go into a fan’s argument (usually one: i miss this character).

that they missed and very little to do with what would actually affect the longetivty of the title. If anything, hisotry shows sales have little to do with the relationship status of the main character, married or single, and more to do with the current creative team and hype their storylines can generate.

that’s not the point being missed though. current sales are only a small part of the equation- in any business you need to factor in future projections and long term plans.

20 years is enough time to sustain one generation of readers.

[AJpyro]

not really. one is a locked status quo the other (in theory) is fluid.



what is that preference though? is it personal or professional? why have they made it?

consider all the factors that go into that choice on their side and compare it to all the factors that tend to go into a fan’s argument (usually one: i miss this character).



that’s not the point being missed though. current sales are only a small part of the equation- in any business you need to factor in future projections and long term plans.

20 years is enough time to sustain one generation of readers.

So since the spidey marriage was gone in 2007/8 then we can see a new marriage in 2027/8?

[Vortex85]

not really. one is a locked status quo the other (in theory) is fluid.

Single Spider-man worked better before the marriage. It's too late now... the question of who his great love is has been answered. Marvel could lie through their teeth about this but they aren't. So it's not a matter of "OH, I wonder where this next relationship will go?" We know the answer. NOWHERE.

Nor do we or Marvel themselves WANT it to go anywhere... because Peter and MJ have to get back together one day.

It's not a status that is fun and free like it used to be. It's just playing a waiting game. "When will Peter and MJ get back together?" is the big question that fans have about single Peter these days. That's not the question you had before in the past when it worked. Now single Spider-Man is a frustrating waiting game that feels even more locked down than the marriage, but just missing the fun and heart that went along with that status quo.

what is that preference though? is it personal or professional? why have they made it?

consider all the factors that go into that choice on their side and compare it to all the factors that tend to go into a fan’s argument (usually one: i miss this character).

that’s not the point being missed though. current sales are only a small part of the equation- in any business you need to factor in future projections and long term plans.

20 years is enough time to sustain one generation of readers.

Future projections and long term plans are all up in the air. They have no idea what will work that far down the line. Let's be real here. Editorial want Spidey to represent youth. He doesn't have to though. He doesn't need that for longevity. But they don't care. Brevoort has pretty much admitted this. It's their preference and it's based on the idea that the character should remain the archetype that he was when they grew up with him, instead of the archetype he was after he was married and the children from 1987 - 2007 grew up wtih him.

The thing they don't realize is, it NOT fun anymore. It's not the same way it used to be when he didn't have a greatest love. Back then it truly could have been anyone, so there was no reason to be so attached to a pairing. But there is no way to erase the marriage or what it did to the mythos. And that means that it will never work like it used to.

[boots]

So since the spidey marriage was gone in 2007/8 then we can see a new marriage in 2027/8?

i’m not sure if you’re intentionally missing the point, but you can probably figure out why that doesn’t logically correlate if you compare the contexts.

[boots]

Future projections and long term plans are all up in the air.

you’re looking at this from a long-term reader’s standpoint. which marvel isn’t. more importantly; marvel shouldn’t.

to dismiss future projections as “up in the air” is horribly simplistic- if they were so useless no company would bother doing them. projections are not 100% accurate (i know from painful personal experience) but they’re based on professional wisdom and market research and demographic studies. they provide a reasonable road map; a better one than “if it ain’t broke”.

what i’m asking (rather unsuccessfully) is that you consider what the professional has to consider:
· new comic book readership is difficult to attain
· the current readership are quite old (supposedly a quarter are in to their 60s. the majority apparently mid 20s-30s) .
· less kids read comics currently than ever in the history of comics
· the goal of keeping the property alive in perpetuity.

so far, your considerations (appear) to be based solely on:
· your personal passion for a character and continuity.
. dismissing professional opinions as being every bit as subjective as yours.

[Keeper of the Crows]

what is that preference though? is it personal or professional? why have they made it?

consider all the factors that go into that choice on their side and compare it to all the factors that tend to go into a fan’s argument (usually one: i miss this character).

I think that comes across as a little uncharitable to fans of the marraige. I think there is more than one reason someone might have for liking the marriage beside simply missing one character. A wife is an added level of responsibility, another core part of Peter's character. When you marry someone, you also join two families together. In JMD's Spectacular, Peter had a very powerful and touching story with Mary Jane's Aunt Anna. In addition, having a spouse means having a partner (a non superpowered side-kick of sorts). I remember Peter bouncing ideas about the Hobgoblin's identity with MJ during Hobgoblin Lives, or when MJ designed the Prodigy costume.

Granted, many of these stories could also be told with Peter and Mary Jane in a committed relationship outside of the confines of marriage, and I think therein lies Marvel's position. I think undoing the marriage was about freedom. If future writers want to feature Spidey dating Black Cat, they can. If they want to write him on his own without being "tied down" by a love interest at all, they can. And if a writer wants to have him dating MJ again, they can. If he was married, that freedom wasn't there.

I enjoyed the marriage, but I've also enjoyed stories with a single Peter since that time. I think there are good reasons on either side of the debate. But I don't think that it would be fair to say that Marvel has all the factors going into that choice and fans of the marriage just have one (missing MJ).

[Scott Taylor]

I enjoyed the marriage, but I've also enjoyed stories with a single Peter since that time.

Me too. And it really shows me that marriage is irrelevant to my enjoyment of the book. Its about Peter Parker, Spider-Man, and his supporting cast. Not his marital status quo.

[boots]

I think that comes across as a little uncharitable to fans of the marraige. I think there is more than one reason someone might have for liking the marriage beside simply missing one character.

well…i thought i allowed for that by using words like “usually” and “tend”.

beyond that though, most of those reasons you listed can be traced back to “what i love”. doing your taxes is also about responsibility, but nobody seems to be arguing for an arc on that. people also aren’t asking for marriage to anyone- they’re asking for marriage to mj and mj only. they all come from a similar source: personal feels.

I think undoing the marriage was about freedom.

in a nutshell.

But I don't think that it would be fair to say that Marvel has all the factors going into that choice and fans of the marriage just have one (missing MJ).

oddly enough i rarely see the fans considering any other factors beyond personal desires. if they do they dismiss them, without taking them seriously.

i’ve used this example before: i loved ben reilly as a kid. i came up with a billion arguments for why he should stick around “peter needed a brother”, “ben allows peter to raise a child”, “peter needed a confidant” “ben has earned the right” etc etc. and maybe one or two of those even made sense.

but none of them really helped the brand. at all. now that i’ve worked as a producer- as much as i personally love that character- i would never bring him back.
some people can’t fathom why marvel don’t see the benefit of making she hulk or black widow part of spidey’s support cast. some can’t fathom why marvel don’t want to honour the mc2 universe more. and a lot can’t fathom why marvel don’t want to respect 20 years of continuity and mj and a marriage.

it all makes so much sense from our personal perspectives and passions.

except…that if we step back and look at the bigger picture- it might not make as much sense as we believe.

[Vortex85]

Undoing the marriage might have given the authors a sense of perceived freedom but it's just an entrance into another type of prison. Now we have 20 years of history considered taboo and under lock and key. And we as readers have the knowledge that Spider-Man will never have a meaningful and long term advancement of a relationship at the level he has had in the past because it just puts them back in the same boat they were in before.

[Frontier]

I enjoyed the marriage, but I've also enjoyed stories with a single Peter since that time. I think there are good reasons on either side of the debate. But I don't think that it would be fair to say that Marvel has all the factors going into that choice and fans of the marriage just have one (missing MJ).

Do the stories that involve a single Peter that you've enjoyed revolved around the fact that he was single? Or do you think they could've still potentially have worked if he was still married to MJ or together with her (setting aside if he was with Carlie at the time)?

[Vortex85]

Also, there is something a little sad about sending the message that we have to remove MJ as Peter's wife to give him freedom. Freedom for what? Certainly not the kind of freedom he would want knowingly. What kind of message does this send to people? Marriage is a prison?

Raise your glass and celebrate, we are finally free from Peter's wretched wife MJ and can put Peter in the arms of another woman, and multiple women at that!

[boots]

Also, there is something a little sad about sending the message that we have to remove MJ as Peter's wife to give him freedom. Freedom for what? Certainly not the kind of freedom he would want knowingly. What kind of message does this send to people? Marriage is a prison?

Raise your glass and celebrate, we are finally free from Peter's wretched wife MJ and can put Peter in the arms of another woman, and multiple women at that!

mate, i’m really unsure if you’re taking the piss or you actually think this.

[Vortex85]

mate, i’m really unsure if you’re taking the piss or you actually think this.

I actually do. Because that is the way it always came across to me.

[boots]

I actually do. Because that is the way it always came across to me.

right. well, just so you know...nobody means it that way.

[Vortex85]

right. well, just so you know...nobody means it that way.

OK, then explain to me how removing the marriage wasn't just that? Was it not to free up Peter so he could be with other women besides just MJ?

Marvel were so giddy over the prospect they celebrated it calling it a BRAND NEW DAY for the character. Totally on the basis that Peter was single and ready to mingle! The very next issue is a full page spread of him making out with a random girl at a nightclub. How much more in your face can you get?