It's embarrassing/frustrating that DC/WB ignores/neglects Superman's Super-Intellect

[JackDaw]

This is as Rahul said above this is a shared universe. Superman should be intelligent but not to the point that he makes other heroes irrelevant. There has to limitations. Or else what is the point of other heroes. He should be able to do good detective work. Not on Batman's level but good .

Given Superman's power set...super senses to investigate, perfect memory, super speed to carry out investigations and ability to make deductions and calculations at super speed, training as an investigative reporter, etc, etc...he really ought (logically) to be up there with Batman.

But as we've seen in countless arguments over the years Superman is in many ways defined nowadays by reference to other characters...he mustn't be as fast as the Flash, know how to fight as well as Wonder Woman, be Hal Jordan's match in will power, etc, etc.

Just hope nobody comes along with power of looking good in a blue jump suit...if that ever happens Superman will have to wear a creased, crumpled, and torn uniform.

[Punisher007]

The problem with that is that you're getting dangerously close to Gary Stu territory. He's god all these other god-like powers, oh and he's ALSO got super-duper intelligence. I both reduces the other heroes by comparison and kills a lot of the tension since no villain can really match him. To be clear, he can be really smart. But Batman being smarter, I've got no problem with that. It's his ONE advantage and I don't need characters to be the best at EVERYTHING. That's just boring.

[Agent Z]

I'm satisfied when they portray him as having more than two brain cells to rub together.

[adkal]

Just hope nobody comes along with power of looking good in a blue jump suit...if that ever happens Superman will have to wear a creased, crumpled, and torn uniform.

Enter Ulysses and issue 38

[Jim Kelly]

The problem with that is that you're getting dangerously close to Gary Stu territory.

I really wish we could retire the Mary Sue/Gary Stu handwave.

For one thing, when we just point to it, then we don't have to make the argument--because everybody knows the argument by now--but that means you don't actually have to develop the argument and investigate the logic. So we start to get lazy in how we use it.

Originally, Mary Sue was a young female newbie who is made to look good through the reflected glory of the already established, stronger characters on the Enterprise. It was an effective insight at the time--although it's done harm to all fictional young female newbies and other under-represented segments of the population in the following years.

But it's not even apt for the already established, stronger characters. They are supposed to be that way. Doctor Who, Superman, Captain Kirk. The reason Mary Sue and Gary Stu are offensive to fans is because the newbie gets all the glory of those characters without all of the hard work in establishing the newbie on her or his own merits.

In fiction, we need both icons and wannabes. If there isn't a Superman, then the flawed characters have no one to aspire to be. Superman always served that place in the classic DC pantheon. He was the guy that everybody else looked up to.

I can see why Superman doesn't want to play that role, because all the other characters seem to have more fun in being such messed-up losers. But comics are so much better when there are those contrasts. If readers can't relate to a Superman who is Super--that's not really the failure of the character, it's the failure of the writers who have forgotten or never learned how to write magnificent heroes.

[LifeIsILL]

He's god all these other god-like powers, oh and he's ALSO got super-duper intelligence. I both reduces the other heroes by comparison and kills a lot of the tension since no villain can really match him. To be clear, he can be really smart. But Batman being smarter, I've got no problem with that. It's his ONE advantage and I don't need characters to be the best at EVERYTHING. That's just boring.

There has never been any villains who can match him and yet Superman has many classic stories.

A guy like Punisher is a mortal but yet how many classic stories does he have??

[Jon Clark]

The problem with that is that you're getting dangerously close to Gary Stu territory. He's god all these other god-like powers, oh and he's ALSO got super-duper intelligence. I both reduces the other heroes by comparison and kills a lot of the tension since no villain can really match him. To be clear, he can be really smart. But Batman being smarter, I've got no problem with that. It's his ONE advantage and I don't need characters to be the best at EVERYTHING. That's just boring.

Except that with Batman he has more than that ONE advantage. Batman gets to be the one person in the room who is an expert on everything both physical and mental. The Flash might be faster, but Batman will get there first because he planned ahead. Wonder Woman and Superman may be stronger but Batman will have some martial arts move or gadget that levels the playing field. And yet most Batfans use this as a strength of the character- he is THE #$##@ing Batman so it all makes sense. But when Superman is shown to have a skill that comes near Batman it's "Garry Stu territory".

[Johnny Thunders!]

I really wish we could retire the Mary Sue/Gary Stu handwave.

For one thing, when we just point to it, then we don't have to make the argument--because everybody knows the argument by now--but that means you don't actually have to develop the argument and investigate the logic. So we start to get lazy in how we use it.

Originally, Mary Sue was a young female newbie who is made to look good through the reflected glory of the already established, stronger characters on the Enterprise. It was an effective insight at the time--although it's done harm to all fictional young female newbies and other under-represented segments of the population in the following years.

But it's not even apt for the already established, stronger characters. They are supposed to be that way. Doctor Who, Superman, Captain Kirk. The reason Mary Sue and Gary Stu are offensive to fans is because the newbie gets all the glory of those characters without all of the hard work in establishing the newbie on her or his own merits.

In fiction, we need both icons and wannabes. If there isn't a Superman, then the flawed characters have no one to aspire to be. Superman always served that place in the classic DC pantheon. He was the guy that everybody else looked up to.
I can see why Superman doesn't want to play that role, because all the other characters seem to have more fun in being such messed-up losers. But comics are so much better when there are those contrasts. If readers can't relate to a Superman who is Super--that's not really the failure of the character, it's the failure of the writers who have forgotten or never learned how to write magnificent heroes.

That sums it up for me.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Given Superman's power set...super senses to investigate, perfect memory, super speed to carry out investigations and ability to make deductions and calculations at super speed, training as an investigative reporter, etc, etc...he really ought (logically) to be up there with Batman.

But as we've seen in countless arguments over the years Superman is in many ways defined nowadays by reference to other characters...he mustn't be as fast as the Flash, know how to fight as well as Wonder Woman, be Hal Jordan's match in will power, etc, etc.

Just hope nobody comes along with power of looking good in a blue jump suit...if that ever happens Superman will have to wear a creased, crumpled, and torn uniform.

Hilarious and so true.

[DochaDocha]

Maybe the problem is less that Superman is intellectually stupid, but more that he doesn't think ahead and often comes unprepared and has to react.

Also, as I like to say, more often than not it's the most clever guy in the room who ends up being the story's most interesting character. If you just leave Superman to his physical powers, casual readers are not going to be attracted to the character. Sometimes, Superman just needs to be a sneaky bastard.

BTW, there are few things in comic books that's more laughably absurd than the scientific genius. I remember watching X-Men: First Class and laughing with my siblings and their spouses about how moronic the writing for Hank McCoy was. I mean, who goes to grad school and becomes an expert in aeronautic engineering AND genetics? Dude who builds the most advanced stealth jet in the world also happens to know how to manipulate mutations at the cellular level.On top of that, but the dude is even an expert pilot. Imagine that! I often find comic book "scientists" to be pretty annoying in that there seems to be no real cap on what they can accomplish that involves any sort of intelligence, and that's about as lame and stupid as giving someone every physical super power in the book. I want Superman to be smart, but not like that.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Maybe the problem is less that Superman is intellectually stupid, but more that he doesn't think ahead and often comes unprepared and has to react.

Also, as I like to say, more often than not it's the most clever guy in the room who ends up being the story's most interesting character. If you just leave Superman to his physical powers, casual readers are not going to be attracted to the character. Sometimes, Superman just needs to be a sneaky bastard.

BTW, there are few things in comic books that's more laughably absurd than the scientific genius. I remember watching X-Men: First Class and laughing with my siblings and their spouses about how moronic the writing for Hank McCoy was. I mean, who goes to grad school and becomes an expert in aeronautic engineering AND genetics? Dude who builds the most advanced stealth jet in the world also happens to know how to manipulate mutations at the cellular level.On top of that, but the dude is even an expert pilot. Imagine that! I often find comic book "scientists" to be pretty annoying in that there seems to be no real cap on what they can accomplish that involves any sort of intelligence, and that's about as lame and stupid as giving someone every physical super power in the book. I want Superman to be smart, but not like that.

That's interesting because I think of Superman as a the ultimate Renaissance man. Everything people do well, he does to the nth level. Scientist, artist, humanitarian, and powerhouse. Every admirable human quality, Superman perfects it.

[DochaDocha]

That's interesting because I think of Superman as a the ultimate Renaissance man. Everything people do well, he does to the nth level. Scientist, artist, humanitarian, and powerhouse. Every admirable human quality, Superman perfects it.

I think it works sometimes, but it has to be handled correctly. If there's some science issue Superman needs to solve, I'd rather that he actively investigates it during the time of crisis, as opposed to already knowing the solution in advance. You get the best of both worlds, i.e. Superman is smart but he also has to work hard, but cut out a lot of the nonsense that people make fun of.

[Lord of Narrative]

Superman's intelligence should be showcased thru problem solving not by techno babbling. Leave the technobabble to Batman, Steel, Veritas and others. Superman doesn't do that. He solves problems he gets out of dangerous situations and figures out stuff.

Don't you mean Emil Hamilton?

[Francisco]

Don't you mean Emil Hamilton?

Currently is Dr. Veritas, post crisis it used to be either Hamilton or Steel.

[Jon Clark]

I think part of the problem is defining intelligence.

To illustrate we take a piece of wonder-tech. It's something a century beyond anything ever seen by our characters (so it can't be something Lex Luthor or Reed Richards would invent before 2115). Our characters can study the device for a set time (say 3 hours) and are then given access to a prototype Miracle Machine which can produce exactly one object at a time(so if it makes an exact copy of the wonder-tech you need to recycle that copy each time you make a new one). We come back 24 hours later.

There are guys like Reed Richards, Luthor, Tony Stark ... who have created a version of the wonder-tech that is centuries more advanced. The records of our Miracle Machine show that they did this in 100 tries with each new version far more advanced than the one before it.

There are guys like Batman whose current version of the wonder-tech is in many ways inferior to the version above, but in a few limited ways may just surpass the "genius" version. The Miracle Machine records that Batman made as many prototypes as the "geniuses" but his improvements between each were less impressive and tended to focus on one or two areas improved each time.

Then we get to The Flash and a few others. Their current model of the wonder-tech is on a par with the "geniuses" but the Miracle Machine shows that they ran through millions of designs. Where Stark or Batman would make an improvement in maybe one or two revisions this team would try a dozen variations before coming to the same conclusions but simply were able to run through a longer trial and error approach along the way.

Where would you place Superman. Is he making intuitive leaps like Luthor, Richards and Stark? Is he closer to Batman in that he has high intelligence but is still unable to make the intuitive scientific leaps that signify genius? Is he creating an illusion of intelligence through his powers like a speedster who gets the right answer simply because he runs through so many possible answers that he simply hits the right one eventually?