Fantastic Four Appreciation 2018

[Digifiend]

* Secret Wars (2015)
There's already a Secret Wars 2.

Yeah, No Surrender's backmatter called the 2015 event Secret Wars 3 once or twice.

[mrbrklyn]

I might even stretch (pun unintended) that thirty to forty years. While the FF has been comfortably above cancellation levels, they are certainly haven't been a big seller in recent years.

They haven't been published at all in recent years. Prior to that they were great. Thank god they weren't the X-Men

Anecdotal evidence shows they have an aging fan base and despite some excellent runs, have not really been "kewl".

The mix of family and cosmic adventure is timeless. I keep on bringing up shows like Sopranos and breaking bad where the mix of extraordinary circumstance juxtaposed with mundane family life is popular. It still sells. And looking at books like Swiss Family Robinson, it always did. I suspect Marvel thinks the FF franchise has been underperforming. A few years off to get us going and a big splash return is obvious marketing. We'd call this a strategy or a gimmick.

Are the FF going to be big and mainstream or are they going to be a niche book? I'm pretty damn sure Marvel's hoping for big and mainstream and this seems like a possible way to get there.

They have sold fine and they have been fine... more than fine. They have been consistently one of the best selling books in comics, despite several awful movies. As far as being niche, you should realize that comics are niche in total. And the best comics have been even more niche than the rest.

[mrbrklyn]

Because they're a classic nuclear family. By the end of the 60s, they were set up as Dad (Reed), Mum (Sue), Son (Franklin), Uncle (Johnny), and honorary Uncle (Ben). Most of the other Marvel heroes aren't that, they're more dysfunctional, very few are even married.

well, some would say the rest of the Marvel universe is full of wackos... Black Panther excepted... and the Inhumans.... hmmm

[mrbrklyn]

Unused FF proposal by Alex Ross.

I. have. No. Words.
Attachment 72283
Attachment 72284
Attachment 72285

well, except that elements of the FF start in the 1930's...

[mrbrklyn]

Yet, many of those same fans probably LOVE Incredibles. Something else is going on.

The Incredables are the FF without the baggage of Marvel.

[U.N. Owen]

Of course, FF is going to have a hard time winning over new fans because of that disaster known as Fant4stic painting the team as boring, angsty, and stupid.

[Crimz]

They haven't been published at all in recent years. Prior to that they were great. Thank god they weren't the X-Men





They have sold fine and they have been fine... more than fine. They have been consistently one of the best selling books in comics, despite several awful movies. As far as being niche, you should realize that comics are niche in total. And the best comics have been even more niche than the rest.

I wish the FF consistently had the sales of main X-Men books.

It hasn't been a bestseller in years. Even Hickman's run did average at best and gained it's recognition after it concluded. The movies definitely did not help, but the FF was a property falling in popularity as time went on. I want the FF to consistently be in the top 20, that's my dream. Something has to be done and now is the time. Marvel needs to do as much as they can to gain new readers, especially after those terrible films. Having them appear often in others books to show that this is what the FF are really like and they are really cool is something that's needed. No more keeping them to the background where they are easily ignored.

[CaptCleghorn]

Nuclear families are not a dated concept. They now have to share the family structure with many other non-traditional setups, but that's life. A family consisting of Mom, Dad, two kids is still OK. It's not omnipresent in fiction like it was fifty or so years ago, but they still operate. As a matter of fact, traditional nuclear families still make up a good chunk of the population; they're far from rare.

This family structure is what keeps the FF from becoming just another Avengers, Defenders, or Ultimates.

[Crimz]

While the book was away I read many comments from those who weren't interested in the team, and the reasons were usually the same. They think the team is boring. Not the adventures they go on, not their villains but the team itself. They especially find Sue and Reed boring. That's why I think they are the ones who are dire need of some more personality, especially Sue who has none most of the time. Many consider the villains infinitely more interesting than the team, and that is a problem. Their villains popularity shouldn't eclipse the heroes the way it does with the FF and their villains.

Reed was made unlikable over the years with civil war and Illuminati stuff. Also, his technobabble gets old real fast. his intelligence can't be all that there is to him. Does he even have hobbies outside of experiments and work? Reed needs to be made more likable and I think less focus on his intelligence may help him. We already know he's smartest man in the world, we don't need to be reminded every panel. Focus more on other aspects of his personality like how he interacts with others and his joy at seeing the next generation develop.

Sue is my favorite character and because of that I need to be as frank as a non-fan. Sue has no personality. I wrote in a previous post about the run where I saw the most personality from her and how that should be used as reference. She doesn't need to be most lively or loudest, she just has to have something more than "mother". Being a mother is not a personality and me saying this isn't asking for her to divorce Reed and abandon her kids (why do people always assume that with Sue whenever she does something without them?). A character that has been around for over 50 years shouldn't be this underdeveloped and lacking in personality. I'm being brutally honest because that's what non-fans will be. She needs to be given a personality and her every waking moment does not need to be about her family, just like it isn't for the men in her family. Also, no more Namor crap it's trite and boring.

Ben and Johnny are fine in the personality department. They are the ones that usually brought up as the exception when it comes to the FF being boring. However they are not completely exempt. Ben's situation with his appearance after the accident has been very interesting and made the character what he is today, but he should no longer dwell on it as much. I think that aspect has been fully explored and it's time to move on and create new trails and tribulations for him. I'm hoping that the marriage to Alicia is the start of it.

Johnny needs to grow up. We all know it and we all know the problem is few things ever sticking in comics. He grows up in one run only to revert back in the next. It's time for it to stick.
Him being more mature doesn't mean he loses his jokey and prankster personality, it would just be less childish. Leave that to Franklin.

There are many changes that the team needs. Some fans will be against them, but that does not make them any less necessary. Lee/Kirby's run was full of change and that's what needs to be taken from it. Many writers on FF have seemed more afraid to implement change to this title than any other Marvel title when this is the one that needs it the most. I hope Slott is able to do it in a way that remains true to the core of the Fantastic Four. That being a family of super-powered explorers.

Wow I wrote more than I thought I did.

[Abe]

I must confess that I really don't care at all about charts, new readers, necessary changes or not, appearances in other books...

I just want great stories - and long game - with big concepts and innovative art. A book that could be read in a decade or two - and sold too : money will come at the time.

Hey! That's the core of the FF!

I don't say we won't get something like that with the relaunch - but I'm obviously a bit disappointed by the artists policy at Marvel today... I'll wait and see...

Anyway I'll get Marvelocity today : I can't live any longer without that incredible DayGlo 60s future pop-art by Alex Ross... (By Uatu, that would have been such a cool book... The coolest niche ever ...)

[mrbrklyn]

I wish the FF consistently had the sales of main X-Men books.

No I don't. The X-men books target a market niche of depressed, repressed feeling teens and young adults which is profitable for Marvel, but exploitative and extremely downbeat.

The FF is a very different product niche, upbeat, and positive. There is nothing like the X-men that I want repeated in the FF. The Fantastic Four should remain the springwell of optimism and positive fun that they have always been, and if that doesn't get sales like Wolverine slashing through life, that is more than fine.

[mrbrklyn]

Nuclear families are not a dated concept. They now have to share the family structure with many other non-traditional setups, but that's life. A family consisting of Mom, Dad, two kids is still OK. It's not omnipresent in fiction like it was fifty or so years ago, but they still operate. As a matter of fact, traditional nuclear families still make up a good chunk of the population; they're far from rare.

This family structure is what keeps the FF from becoming just another Avengers, Defenders, or Ultimates.

Unfortunately, for too many people, nuclear families is a dated concept. This is the age of the Kardasians (and not the ones from Star Trek)

[mrbrklyn]

While the book was away I read many comments from those who weren't interested in the team, and the reasons were usually the same.

None of this matters as the book was away and the comments are being made when there is no current product, and biased by the youthful nature of the market which has almost no collective memory.

The Fantastic Four was never boring, so where do you go from there? They were never unpopular. They never didn't sell. They seeded nearly every other Marvel title with characters. If someone tells you Jack Kirby's Fabtastic Four was boring, you don't give that credence. You just shrug your shoulder and say, OK, and move on. Nothing substantial needs to change with the FF and when they try to do that, it fails every time.

[Crimz]

I must confess that I really don't care at all about charts, new readers, necessary changes or not, appearances in other books...

I just want great stories - and long game - with big concepts and innovative art. A book that could be read in a decade or two - and sold too : money will come at the time.

Hey! That's the core of the FF!

I don't say we won't get something like that with the relaunch - but I'm obviously a bit disappointed by the artists policy at Marvel today... I'll wait and see...

Anyway I'll get Marvelocity today : I can't live any longer without that incredible DayGlo 60s future pop-art by Alex Ross... (By Uatu, that would have been such a cool book... The coolest niche ever ...)

Quality goes without saying, the book being good is always a priority. But the FF needs new fans to survive. I just don't want a repeat of the past 3 years beacuse next time it may be permanent.

No I don't. The X-men books target a market niche of depressed, repressed feeling teens and young adults which is profitable for Marvel, but exploitative and extremely downbeat.

The FF is a very different product niche, upbeat, and positive. There is nothing like the X-men that I want repeated in the FF. The Fantastic Four should remain the springwell of optimism and positive fun that they have always been, and if that doesn't get sales like Wolverine slashing through life, that is more than fine.

I don't want the FF to be like the X-Men, I just want them to have the same kind of sales. A FF that is constantly in the top 20 or 30, one that Marvel can't cancel without huge backlash. That's what I want. Giving the team more focus and opportunity to expand the fanbase leads to that.

[Crimz]

None of this matters as the book was away and the comments are being made when there is no current product, and biased by the youthful nature of the market which has almost no collective memory.

The Fantastic Four was never boring, so where do you go from there? They were never unpopular. They never didn't sell. They seeded nearly every other Marvel title with characters. If someone tells you Jack Kirby's Fabtastic Four was boring, you don't give that credence. You just shrug your shoulder and say, OK, and move on. Nothing substantial needs to change with the FF and when they try to do that, it fails every time.

That's just untrue, it hasn't been popular or a bestseller in years. And the Lee/kirby run was decades ago, we are talking about the now. The Lee/Kirby run was great for it's time, but has definitely aged and can't be used to attract modern readers.