Fantastic Four Appreciation 2018

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

I'm really glad they had a reason to have Ben and Johnny have their powers in the new Fantastic Four.

[Mantis Dad]

Spoilers for 2-in-One #9

spoilers:

Suzie! But was it our Sue? Ben and Johnny seemed to regain their powers in her presence which would lead us to think it could be. It may explain why Johnny is back to thinking they're alive in FF #1, as he's the only one who saw her. But it doesn't explain why he is not 100% sure they are alive and even accepted that they were gone in that issue. So many questions!

end of spoilers

I enjoyed this issue as well. I sure hope they keep this book going with one of the FF and someone else every issue. Well written book. 3.75 our of 5 for issue #9.

[Shadowcat]

Me too. Thing vs Hulk is classic and their rivalry has only gotten more one-sided as time went on. It's time to make Ben an actual challenge to Hulk and other heavy hitters again.

This piece is beautiful. I’d love to see him do a piece with Sue.

[CaptCleghorn]

Me too. Thing vs Hulk is classic and their rivalry has only gotten more one-sided as time went on. It's time to make Ben an actual challenge to Hulk and other heavy hitters again.

I feel obliged to chime in on Ben vs Hulk. It's a shame the power levels of the two have drifted so far apart. The Hulk's set up as practically a force of nature unto himself and Ben's still Ben. Now we could up Ben's power level (and to be honest, it should be) to get closer to Hulk and Thor. He should be AT LEAST as strong as Iron Man. Guys like Luke Cage and Spider-Man? Sorry, Big difference.

But even ignoring the strength levels, Ben is a damn good street fighter. He certainly isn't Shang Chi, Wolvie, or Cap, but Ben Grimm knows his way around a back alley opponent. He should be a reasonably knowledgeable fighter.

[Crimz]

I feel obliged to chime in on Ben vs Hulk. It's a shame the power levels of the two have drifted so far apart. The Hulk's set up as practically a force of nature unto himself and Ben's still Ben. Now we could up Ben's power level (and to be honest, it should be) to get closer to Hulk and Thor. He should be AT LEAST as strong as Iron Man. Guys like Luke Cage and Spider-Man? Sorry, Big difference.

But even ignoring the strength levels, Ben is a damn good street fighter. He certainly isn't Shang Chi, Wolvie, or Cap, but Ben Grimm knows his way around a back alley opponent. He should be a reasonably knowledgeable fighter.

I agree. I'm not saying that he would beat Hulk or is as strong as him, but he definitely should be in the same ballpark and provide a challenge to Hulk. The gap shouldn't be so huge, it should be small enough that Ben can make up for being slightly weaker with his fighting skills and experience. I also liked that he was faster than Hulk and deceptively fast for his size, that should be brought back.

In terms of brute strength the "big three" were Hulk, Thor, and Ben. For some reason Ben was the only one to fall off that, I want him back in that region. The thing is that I don't understand why it even happened. Why did he gradually fall behind in strength to the point where I've seen people claim that Spidey and Luke are stronger when they shouldn't even be on the same playing field? It's not like the FF are a street level team, facing cosmic beings is a common occurrence.

I've also noticed the same thing happen with Johnny. He used to be one of Marvel's more powerful heroes, but while others grew exponentially (you can just look at Sue) he kind of stagnated. His nova flame, his most powerful attack, used to end whatever threat they were up against and only the really powerful could handle it. Now even Aunt May could probably survive it and he faints after it. So it often ends up doing no damage as well as knocking him out for the rest of the fight.

Both Ben and Johnny need to be stronger in my opinion so that the team is stronger. The FF should be one of the first teams you call if something cosmic is on your doorstep, now quite a few other teams are stronger with the random powerups their members often get.

[Shadowcat]

I agree. I'm not saying that he would beat Hulk or is as strong as him, but he definitely should be in the same ballpark and provide a challenge to Hulk. The gap shouldn't be so huge, it should be small enough that Ben can make up for being slightly weaker with his fighting skills and experience. I also liked that he was faster than Hulk and deceptively fast for his size, that should be brought back.

In terms of brute strength the "big three" were Hulk, Thor, and Ben. For some reason Ben was the only one to fall off that, I want him back in that region. The thing is that I don't understand why it even happened. Why did he gradually fall behind in strength to the point where I've seen people claim that Spidey and Luke are stronger when they shouldn't even be on the same playing field? It's not like the FF are a street level team, facing cosmic beings is a common occurrence.

I've also noticed the same thing happen with Johnny. He used to be one of Marvel's more powerful heroes, but while others grew exponentially (you can just look at Sue) he kind of stagnated. His nova flame, his most powerful attack, used to end whatever threat they were up against and only the really powerful could handle it. Now even Aunt May could probably survive it and he faints after it. So it often ends up doing no damage as well as knocking him out for the rest of the fight.

Both Ben and Johnny need to be stronger in my opinion so that the team is stronger. The FF should be one of the first teams you call if something cosmic is on your doorstep, now quite a few other teams are stronger with the random powerups their members often get.

This. All of this. It’s exactly what I’ve been wanting from my FF comics for years.

[CaptCleghorn]

I agree. I'm not saying that he would beat Hulk or is as strong as him, but he definitely should be in the same ballpark and provide a challenge to Hulk. The gap shouldn't be so huge, it should be small enough that Ben can make up for being slightly weaker with his fighting skills and experience. I also liked that he was faster than Hulk and deceptively fast for his size, that should be brought back.

In terms of brute strength the "big three" were Hulk, Thor, and Ben. For some reason Ben was the only one to fall off that, I want him back in that region. The thing is that I don't understand why it even happened. Why did he gradually fall behind in strength to the point where I've seen people claim that Spidey and Luke are stronger when they shouldn't even be on the same playing field? It's not like the FF are a street level team, facing cosmic beings is a common occurrence.

I've also noticed the same thing happen with Johnny. He used to be one of Marvel's more powerful heroes, but while others grew exponentially (you can just look at Sue) he kind of stagnated. His nova flame, his most powerful attack, used to end whatever threat they were up against and only the really powerful could handle it. Now even Aunt May could probably survive it and he faints after it. So it often ends up doing no damage as well as knocking him out for the rest of the fight.

Both Ben and Johnny need to be stronger in my opinion so that the team is stronger. The FF should be one of the first teams you call if something cosmic is on your doorstep, now quite a few other teams are stronger with the random powerups their members often get.

Your assessment that the FF needs to be more powerful is correct. But to be fair, that is a tough line to walk with them. When dealing with cosmic entities, even intense physical powers aren't enough and the team wins through heart or brains. However, when dealing with common criminals, the FF should be handling these guys in their sleep. As much as I hate how the Frightful Four became jokes, that team really should have dropped off against the Fantastic Four. It makes sense for the Frightful to fail so easily against the Fantastic. We should be seeing situations like the Acts of Vengeance covers (334-336).

But in cases where Ben's facing off against someone who is actually upper class (Thor, Hercules, Surfer, Abomination), we should see him delivering at a higher level and not jobbing out. The FF should be first class combatants (even Reed to some extent) and have villains think twice about messing with them.

[Shadowcat]

Your assessment that the FF needs to be more powerful is correct. But to be fair, that is a tough line to walk with them. When dealing with cosmic entities, even intense physical powers aren't enough and the team wins through heart or brains. However, when dealing with common criminals, the FF should be handling these guys in their sleep. As much as I hate how the Frightful Four became jokes, that team really should have dropped off against the Fantastic Four. It makes sense for the Frightful to fail so easily against the Fantastic. We should be seeing situations like the Acts of Vengeance covers (334-336).

But in cases where Ben's facing off against someone who is actually upper class (Thor, Hercules, Surfer, Abomination), we should see him delivering at a higher level and not jobbing out. The FF should be first class combatants (even Reed to some extent) and have villains think twice about messing with them.

They really should be upping the intelligence of their more common street level villains too, otherwise Reed could just whip up a dues ex immediately and have them all corralled. Nothing wrong with increasing their gadgets and other things as well. Also, some of their villains need makeovers. Paste Pot Pete and the Wizard are perennial losers, and their wardrobes show it.

[Crimz]

Your assessment that the FF needs to be more powerful is correct. But to be fair, that is a tough line to walk with them. When dealing with cosmic entities, even intense physical powers aren't enough and the team wins through heart or brains. However, when dealing with common criminals, the FF should be handling these guys in their sleep. As much as I hate how the Frightful Four became jokes, that team really should have dropped off against the Fantastic Four. It makes sense for the Frightful to fail so easily against the Fantastic. We should be seeing situations like the Acts of Vengeance covers (334-336).

But in cases where Ben's facing off against someone who is actually upper class (Thor, Hercules, Surfer, Abomination), we should see him delivering at a higher level and not jobbing out. The FF should be first class combatants (even Reed to some extent) and have villains think twice about messing with them.

Yeah not every cosmic being should be able to be beaten with brute strength, but some should. Relying on Reed to whip up some gadget/maguffin to save the day gets boring fast and makes the others look superfluous. When the Avengers or X-Men take on cosmic beings they usually just brute strength it. Heck, teen Jean Grey without the phoenix was able to take on Galactus by herself. The FF should have the power to be a threat to some cosmic beings, it doesn't mean they can always win with that alone but it should be a valid option if it ever comes to that.

A question: In what ways would you guys upgrade members of the FF? What new things would they be able to do?

[Grim Fandango]

uh it (2-in-1) ends with issue 12 sorry

But! In the new year we'll be debuting the SPIRITUAL SUCCESSOR to the book!

I can't say anything about the cast!!!!

https://mobile.twitter.com/zdarsky/s...19771576393730

[danielsan52]

I hope 2 -in-1 continues with a FF and another character like it used to.

[KOSLOX]

https://mobile.twitter.com/zdarsky/s...19771576393730

Please be Doom and Namor supervillain Team-Up.

[Kirkpatrick]

Very much dislike the art in Marvel Two-in-one now.


And it started so nicely....

Story is fine though, not sure about this Thinker (please be alternative one!) and I miss Doom, but I still like it. Ben and Johnny rock.

[CaptCleghorn]

They really should be upping the intelligence of their more common street level villains too, otherwise Reed could just whip up a dues ex immediately and have them all corralled. Nothing wrong with increasing their gadgets and other things as well. Also, some of their villains need makeovers. Paste Pot Pete and the Wizard are perennial losers, and their wardrobes show it.

A common plot is one where the villain sets things up ahead of time so he gets the advantage and Reed needs to play catchup. Now certainly many of these "evil genius" villains have degraded into cartoonist caricatures. It's probably a solution of not making the bad guys smarter or more powerful, but using their particular talents in more imaginative ways. Over in the Jessica Jones universe, Killgrave makes heroes $#!+ their pants. The Puppet Master should do likewise. The Thinker is probably in the top 100 smartest. His work with cause and eff4ect is unparalleled. The Wizard has had a string of accomplishments up until and including his power gloves. Again, maybe top 100, but in a world of over 7 billion, that's pretty damn good.

The challenge is to properly use set-up and brains in a medium where the six issue arc now rules. How much set-up do we give a city where the Thinker's web, or Puppet Master's controls become both visible and a threat? And how does it keep interest when Robinson's Quiet Man arc quietly fizzled despite its incredible FF by the numbers approach?

It's very easy for me to say "I'd like to see this...". It can be difficult to imagine how to do it.

But quickly and in recap. use what you have better. Constant upgrading isn't the answer.

[JackDaw]

But quickly and in recap. use what you have better. Constant upgrading isn't the answer.

It’s certainly not. Marvel has actually gone too far down that road already.

In terms of plots...surprised...the theme of villains taking out Reed early on in a sneak attack has not been used more often.

Put it this way, if you were an ultra powerful intelligent villain (Marvel allegedly has a load of those) planning to take on the Four...why on Earth wouldn’t your first move be to take Reed off the board?

It might be refreshing after that first move to see Sue, Johnny, and Ben work with Future Foundation to cook up some specific gadgets to win through.

(Idea that Ben, Johnny and Sue don’t have a good working knowledge of technology after working with Reed all these years is more than a wee bit daft. I’d like to see that slowly and quietly binned, with the three just sometimes being more resourceful than Reed on ideas as well as action front.)