Fantastic Four Appreciation 2018

[nadler]

In Fantastic Four #1, was the so-called "Valley of Diamonds" really that, or did Stan Lee incorrectly interpret what Jack had illustrated in the specific panels? My reason for asking is the team are in hazmat suits when observing, which suggests safety for radioactivity. You don’t don hazmat suits to observe caverns of gems (if you're concerned about getting cut, the material of a hazmat suit ain't gonna do the trick. Uranium ore deposits are multi-faceted, so perhaps should have been coloured green instead of white and blue!?

If the "Valley" was intended to be uranium ore, does this mean the Mole Man had been tasking his monsters with stealing/stockpiling the world’s uranium ore to prevent it being enriched by humans?

It makes the Mole Man a protector against humanity's insanity, as opposed to a villain, probably not the conclusion Stan wanted. However, with the final explosion in the issue, I think this is what Kirby was aiming for, a warning to us about the path we were going down, much more resonant, and tragic.

[CaptCleghorn]

In Fantastic Four #1, was the so-called "Valley of Diamonds" really that, or did Stan Lee incorrectly interpret what Jack had illustrated in the specific panels? My reason for asking is the team are in hazmat suits when observing, which suggests safety for radioactivity. You don’t don hazmat suits to observe caverns of gems (if you're concerned about getting cut, the material of a hazmat suit ain't gonna do the trick. Uranium ore deposits are multi-faceted, so perhaps should have been coloured green instead of white and blue!?

If the "Valley" was intended to be uranium ore, does this mean the Mole Man had been tasking his monsters with stealing/stockpiling the world’s uranium ore to prevent it being enriched by humans?

It makes the Mole Man a protector against humanity's insanity, as opposed to a villain, probably not the conclusion Stan wanted. However, with the final explosion in the issue, I think this is what Kirby was aiming for, a warning to us about the path we were going down, much more resonant, and tragic.

This could easily be made what happened. Your observations and speculation about Jack's motives in his art are in-depth and well thought out. I'm all for this.

[phantom1592]

Ah, a more defined sense of dumb. I think I get it. I've said I hope Slott gets a good idea of what real early teen boys and young girls are like in this day and age.

but.... what would 'real teen boys and girls' have to do with the Richards kids? They haven't really been THAT exposed to 'normal' society after all...

[Ravin' Ray]

It slipped under our radar but CBR did The 100 Greatest Stan Lee Stories Ever Told, and #1 is “The Coming of Galactus” Fantastic Four #48-50. There are several other FF stories there but I haven't gone through the entire list.

[nadler]

This could easily be made what happened. Your observations and speculation about Jack's motives in his art are in-depth and well thought out. I'm all for this.

I think the "valley" would originally have been the fissile material from all the nuclear plants that the Mole Man had his "monsters" pull underground. It also fits the story much better: it's the big reveal that is foreshadowed at the start, and this material is the ticking bomb that causes the tension in the story (before Lee gutted it), causing the explosion at the end.

[juan678]

[Crimz]

I posted this in another thread, but decided to post it here. I know some will disagree with me and that's fine, differing opinions are always great and I can easily see where you're coming from:

The Fantastic Four isn't the most diverse group. I love them to bits, but I can understand why some might not be interested or not find them relatable. The core team will never be racially diverse and with the loss of the Future Foundation they've lost their only diverse representation of Onome (the Wakandan genius) and Tong (the transgender Moloid). It shows to me how easy it is to unintentionally remove diversity when your diverse characters are part of the supporting cast instead of the main.

I think Johnny being bi not only makes sense when you look back on all things you can interpret in his history, but also as a main character he isn't going to be limbo'd away for very long. Plus there are so few bisexual heroes and bisexuals are very underrepresented in media as a whole. When we do get bisexual characters, they are usually morally grey or villains which is messed up. You can count the amount of heroic bisexual superheroes on your hands. So I think Johnny is a perfect existing hero to be revealed as being bi.

Things that I think could be set-up for this reveal in this run:

Issue 1 of Slott's run has Johnny and Wyatt (his best friend since college) hang out together. But the body language and the way they were together made them seem more like a couple than friends. It wasn't only me who noticed either, as quite a few other posters and readers on the internet saw the same thing. The artist on this issue was Sara Pichelli, an artist known for being great at conveying body language in her art. Which makes me think/hope it's intentional.
The next three issues are mainly about Reed and Sue's return so you don't see Wyatt.

The latest issue (issue 5) has Johnny reflecting on his past failed relationships and hitting on any woman he see's, he asked Thundra to be his plus one but Ben stopped that and he even hit on a supervillain. Ben noticed that Johnny was being weird and we get this (spoilers for Fantastic Four #5):



With Ben getting married Johnny is feeling more like a failure because of his failed relationships. Ben's advice of him to not force it, that he'll know when it's right and to make that leap of faith leads me to think that his next relationship may not be with a woman and may even be with his friend Wyatt. Particularly the advice to make the leap and be brave stands out the most to me. Johnny trying to start a relationship with Wyatt would be a scary new thing for him that would need confidence. He has confidence in starting relationships with women (as we saw this issue), but with a man who is also his best friend would be frightening new territory for him. Ben's advice makes the most sense in that scenario.

Also, throughout this story Wyatt has been stuck to Johnny like glue. Instead of Thundra joining Johnny at the wedding we have Wyatt with him again. Plus little subtle things like this image during the bachelor party:



The solicit for issue 7 says this: "plus a strange new development in the life of the Human Torch.". Which is also making raise an eyebrow.

All of this leads to be believe something is brewing. I can easily be looking too hard and it's not the case at all. But if it is I'm happy that Slott is slowly building it up. My issue with Iceman's outing was that there was zero set-up in the run he was outed. I understand that there were hints and references in past runs, but that there wasn't even a throwaway line during Bendis' run before Bobby was outed made it seem really random. If Johnny is going to be revealed to be bi then I think that Slott is going about it the right way by setting it up instead of just throwing it out there.

[Hypestyle]

Merry Christmas!



!

nice. where can I get this as a poster?

[U.N. Owen]

[SIZE=4]

The solicit for issue 7 says this: "plus a strange new development in the life of the Human Torch.". Which is also making raise an eyebrow.

All of this leads to be believe something is brewing. I can easily be looking too hard and it's not the case at all. But if it is I'm happy that Slott is slowly building it up. My issue with Iceman's outing was that there was zero set-up in the run he was outed. I understand that there were hints and references in past runs, but that there wasn't even a throwaway line during Bendis' run before Bobby was outed made it seem really random. If Johnny is going to be revealed to be bi then I think that Slott is going about it the right way by setting it up instead of just throwing it out there.

I tend to hate how past relationship failures are used to set up LGBT stories ever since Brian "Everyone's a bit bi" Bendis decided to use Iceman's failed relationships with girls to justify how he's gay. It's frankly just lazy to me. Still, if this is the setup, Slott is already doing a better job than Bendis.

[Snoop Dogg]

I tend to hate how past relationship failures are used to set up LGBT stories ever since Brian "Everyone's a bit bi" Bendis decided to use Iceman's failed relationships with girls to justify how he's gay. It's frankly just lazy to me. Still, if this is the setup, Slott is already doing a better job than Bendis.

Dan has actually already used past relationships to reveal that a character was gay with Living Lightning in Great Lakes Avengers, and he did it a decade before Brian did it with Bobby.

[U.N. Owen]

Dan has actually already used past relationships to reveal that a character was gay with Living Lightning in Great Lakes Avengers, and he did it a decade before Brian did it with Bobby.

My hatred was only a recent development.

[Crimz]

I tend to hate how past relationship failures are used to set up LGBT stories ever since Brian "Everyone's a bit bi" Bendis decided to use Iceman's failed relationships with girls to justify how he's gay. It's frankly just lazy to me. Still, if this is the setup, Slott is already doing a better job than Bendis.

I'm also not a fan of that, but i don't think that would be a part of this story. I think it's only to show Johnny's disappointment with his past relationships not working. I don't believe there was any underlying reasons for why most of his relationships ended. They just weren't meant to be, and I believe that Johnny was definitely 100% attracted to them. Johnny being bisexual would mean that none of his past relationships were "fake" or are painted in a different light like Bobby's. They'd be exactly the same.
I think Ben's advice to him is more telling than the failed relationships thing, with the whole "leap of faith" and be "be brave" thing. It's advice that I don't think Johnny would need if it were a woman as he's already pretty brave doing that.

Almost anything is better than Bendis' outing of Iceman that had zero setup or hints during the run.

[U.N. Owen]

Almost anything is better than Bendis' outing of Iceman that had no setup.

That's actually the last reason why I hate the comic. I have other reasons to hate it.

I have a bigger problem with Jeen pretty much acting like an LGBT expert when she outs Iceman. The knowledge the general public would have about the LGBT community during the 80s that would overshadow everything else was the Haitians, Hemophiliacs, Heroin addicts, and Homosexuals disease (AIDS). Those entire panels have her act like she knows everything there is to know about the LGBT mind despite only recently getting her telepathy. Screw you. You barely know anything about the heterosexual mind. You're not qualified to talk about the LGBT mind in the slightest. "Everyone's a little bi." Give me a break.

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm also not a fan of that, but i don't think that would be a part of this story. I think it's only to show Johnny's disappointment with his past relationships not working. I don't believe there was any underlying reasons for why most of his relationships ended. They just weren't meant to be, and I believe that Johnny was definitely 100% attracted to them. Johnny being bisexual would mean that none of his past relationships were "fake" or are painted in a different light like Bobby's. They'd be exactly the same.
I think Ben's advice to him is more telling than the failed relationships thing, with the whole "leap of faith" and be "be brave" thing. It's advice that I don't think Johnny would need if it were a woman as he's already pretty brave doing that.

Almost anything is better than Bendis' outing of Iceman that had zero setup or hints during the run.

So are you speculating that Ben may have a subconscious gaydar going off for Johnny? Ben and Johnny have been through a lot and Ben is someone who can see the best in people. He sees the good in Reed, despite all that's happened. I could imagine Ben being one of the first to note that in Johnny (depending on how canonical Daken is). Ben's an interesting choice to help bring Johnny out as Ben's background is the most dealing with stereotypical homophobic activities like sports teams and the military. Ben's friendship with Reed is one where Ben was basically mentoring him socially through college.

If Johnny does come out, great. But no matter which team he ends up playing for, he still needs to grow up some.

[Prof. Warren]

I posted this in another thread, but decided to post it here. I know some will disagree with me and that's fine, differing opinions are always great and I can easily see where you're coming from:

The Fantastic Four isn't the most diverse group. I love them to bits, but I can understand why some might not be interested or not find them relatable. The core team will never be racially diverse and with the loss of the Future Foundation they've lost their only diverse representation of Onome (the Wakandan genius) and Tong (the transgender Moloid). It shows to me how easy it is to unintentionally remove diversity when your diverse characters are part of the supporting cast instead of the main.

I think Johnny being bi not only makes sense when you look back on all things you can interpret in his history, but also as a main character he isn't going to be limbo'd away for very long. Plus there are so few bisexual heroes and bisexuals are very underrepresented in media as a whole. When we do get bisexual characters, they are usually morally grey or villains which is messed up. You can count the amount of heroic bisexual superheroes on your hands. So I think Johnny is a perfect existing hero to be revealed as being bi.

Things that I think could be set-up for this reveal in this run:

Issue 1 of Slott's run has Johnny and Wyatt (his best friend since college) hang out together. But the body language and the way they were together made them seem more like a couple than friends. It wasn't only me who noticed either, as quite a few other posters and readers on the internet saw the same thing. The artist on this issue was Sara Pichelli, an artist known for being great at conveying body language in her art. Which makes me think/hope it's intentional.
The next three issues are mainly about Reed and Sue's return so you don't see Wyatt.

The latest issue (issue 5) has Johnny reflecting on his past failed relationships and hitting on any woman he see's, he asked Thundra to be his plus one but Ben stopped that and he even hit on a supervillain. Ben noticed that Johnny was being weird and we get this (spoilers for Fantastic Four #5):



With Ben getting married Johnny is feeling more like a failure because of his failed relationships. Ben's advice of him to not force it, that he'll know when it's right and to make that leap of faith leads me to think that his next relationship may not be with a woman and may even be with his friend Wyatt. Particularly the advice to make the leap and be brave stands out the most to me. Johnny trying to start a relationship with Wyatt would be a scary new thing for him that would need confidence. He has confidence in starting relationships with women (as we saw this issue), but with a man who is also his best friend would be frightening new territory for him. Ben's advice makes the most sense in that scenario.

Also, throughout this story Wyatt has been stuck to Johnny like glue. Instead of Thundra joining Johnny at the wedding we have Wyatt with him again. Plus little subtle things like this image during the bachelor party:



The solicit for issue 7 says this: "plus a strange new development in the life of the Human Torch.". Which is also making raise an eyebrow.

All of this leads to be believe something is brewing. I can easily be looking too hard and it's not the case at all. But if it is I'm happy that Slott is slowly building it up. My issue with Iceman's outing was that there was zero set-up in the run he was outed. I understand that there were hints and references in past runs, but that there wasn't even a throwaway line during Bendis' run before Bobby was outed made it seem really random. If Johnny is going to be revealed to be bi then I think that Slott is going about it the right way by setting it up instead of just throwing it out there.

Slott could be building up to this kind of reveal for Johnny. It's not completely out of the question.

However, what is out of the question that it would ever be teased in a solicit as a "strange new development."

It makes it sound as though there is something weird or aberrant about Johnny being gay or bi and that just isn't how they would ever promote such a reveal.

Whatever's happening to Johnny in #7, it's not anything to do with his sexuality.