Is New Avengers a book about heroes?

[gregyo]

Why don't you answer my question? Here it is again:

I would figure out another way that doesn't involved mass murder.

Though chances are, this situation would never occur because I would actually be trying to find other solutions (Franklin Richards), instead of wringing my hands and angsting because I've already decided that murder was the best option.

[jackolover]

I think once they do "the unthinkable," they cease to be heroes at all. They become well-intentioned villains, i.e. High Evolutionary.

I think that the Illuminati being different to Captain America is the big revelation in New Avengers. There are DC comics heroes, and there are Marvel Comics heroes. If you can't accept that there are grey areas involved in the Marvel Heroes, then all of them are evil. Marvel Heroes were constructed on the premise they had clay feet. That is, we are supposed to relate to them because nothing is just black and white. I think we are being a little harsh on the Illuminati to now judge them as villains, when up till now, we have overlooked their many mistakes in life. After all, Marvel is the mob who are proponents of the second chance. Doc Ock, was made a hero, Dr Doom was made a hero, Magneto was made a hero. Are you not going to afford the Illuminati the same chance as those villains? It becomes a little cute when we judge Marvel Heroes as villains. We have seen it tried in Civil War, and more times again in Fantastic Four, who have been stripped of their wealth, their building and now their children, because the authorities deemed that super heroes were acting as villains.

Now, maybe, Hickman is casting heroes as villains as a prelude to exposing that the MU has degenerated into a villainous state, since Age of Ultron destroyed Space-Time? That may yet be the case.

[jackolover]

I don't think that things like good and evil are clear cut either, but I do think that killing billions is pretty clearly-cut evil.

Black Swan has already told the Illuminati that it robs the soul once a person has taken the lives of Billions, so this is not an easy decision to make. That there is no alternative at this point, makes it possible that someone will have to cross that line, but all the others must take the responsibility of that one, too. If anything, New Avengers is showing us an Adult dilemma in a super hero context, where you can't punch out the villain and win. It's a demonstration of a sort of story telling where you can't put anyone in the hero or villain category. We can demonise the other Earth, like in WW11, and because we survive, we write history, so we are justified. But the Illuminati aren't a political machine, who has the power to sway public opinion in this closed room that the Illuminati find themselves, so they don't have the benefit of stroking their egos like the politicians who convince themselves that doing anything to win a war is noble. The justification element involved with the Incursion encounters has been removed. There is no Thanos, or Annihilis. There is just a spear being thrown at the MU Earth, and people trying to deflect it.

[Chief]

I would figure out another way that doesn't involved mass murder.

Though chances are, this situation would never occur because I would actually be trying to find other solutions (Franklin Richards), instead of wringing my hands and angsting because I've already decided that murder was the best option.

So in the scenario where you are out of options and moments away from mass death and destruction your answer is...find more options?

You run out of time and don't make a decision and BAM, everyone dies. Are you happy now?

You are no less of a murderer not making a decision because you've killed those you could have saved.

If it comes down to everyone dying or a fraction of life dying, you make the hard choice and save as much life as you can. You can't make up a mysterious 3rd option.

And that's what this book is all about. Making the hard choices and living with them (that they haven't made yet)

[gregyo]

Yes, I can, and I bet Hickman does as well.

it's really this simple. The Illuminati can find other options, they just have already decided that murder is the best one.

Hell, I already gave one. (Franklin Richards)

So, yes, I can come up with a third option that doesn't involve mass murder.

Sorry for destroying your little test.

[UltimateTy]

The illuminati haven't murdered anybody. They didn't even kill Terrax for some weird reason.

[gregyo]

I'm not sure why you made this topic. You don't really want to discuss things, you just want to bash the Illuminati every chance you can.

You didn't destroy any sort of "test." You chose to be a troll and not participate in it. It seems that you just want to get your opinion over on everyone.

Why is a hypothetical situation that will never happen in the book more important than talking about the actual book?

[neohuey89]

it seems like the content of the actual book is being largely ignored in this "discussion"

[Sardorim]

They are saving their Earth from destruction. To do that, they have to compromise their ethics. That doesn't mean they are not heroes, just not Superman/Captain America style heroes who have no sins.

But Cap does have sins... Don't think any old Hero has clean hands, not even Spider-Man. Only the much younger Heroes have clean hands because they haven't had a chance to dirty them yet.