Is New Avengers a book about heroes?

[Ant-manic]

I would say so, yeah.

Either all life is sacred, or none of it is. *shrug*

then how are you a Namor fan? that guys kills for sport.

[gregyo]

then how are you a Namor fan? that guys kills for sport.

Namor lives in the gray area. That said, Namor isn't really a 'hero,' is he?

[Trident]

then how are you a Namor fan? that guys kills for sport.

No he doesn't....

Where are you getting this misinformation?

[MouserGrey]

Your definition of heroic is needed. I've seen several over my life and some of them do have incredible grey areas. It has become somewhat of a generalized term. some might even say just trying to solve the problem the way they are is heroic. and as they have not yet killed billions and are only contemplating it I would say if they had hero status to begin with they may not yet have lost it. I will say again that Hickman has these characters on a slippery slope I am not to happy they are on.

[hawkeyefan]

Yeah, but two sides fighting for a cause will have casualties. The Illuminati are just planning on murdering billions of people, most of whom will probably have no idea why they're dying. Those two are not the same.

Soldiers sacrifice themselves. They understand what they're doing when they put on the uniform. That's what makes it so noble, that's why they should be honored and appreciated.

The Illuminati are just murdering billions, plain and simple.

First, they haven't murdered anyone yet. They've prepared themselves for the possibility, but they want to avoid it.

Second, I think that what they are planning is very similar to how you describe soldiers. They're sacrificing themselves....their souls or their consciences at least....so that others don't have to.

But the question is, could they still be considered heroes? I think not.

And that's a valid stance. There's no certain answer because there's no certain definition of hero.

You're basing your stance on if they actually do destroy another Earth. So if we go with that assumption, then we also have to assume that they exhausted all other options. And if they had exhausted all other options, then they are left with two options: destroy a world or allow two universes to die.

So yes, your assumption does indeed imply that letting two universes die is better than killing one world. Whether you realize it or not.

I would argue that given only those two horrible options, a hero would go with the lesser of two evils.

But like I said, there are a number of ways to interpret it, and that's what makes this story more compelling than your average superhero fare.

[neohuey89]

But the question is, could they still be considered heroes? I think not.

personally I would. I don't think they themselves would. At least not for a while.

[Baron of Faltine]

First, they haven't murdered anyone yet. They've prepared themselves for the possibility, but they want to avoid it.

Second, I think that what they are planning is very similar to how you describe soldiers. They're sacrificing themselves....their souls or their consciences at least....so that others don't have to.



And that's a valid stance. There's no certain answer because there's no certain definition of hero.

You're basing your stance on if they actually do destroy another Earth. So if we go with that assumption, then we also have to assume that they exhausted all other options. And if they had exhausted all other options, then they are left with two options: destroy a world or allow two universes to die.

So yes, your assumption does indeed imply that letting two universes die is better than killing one world. Whether you realize it or not.

I would argue that given only those two horrible options, a hero would go with the lesser of two evils.

But like I said, there are a number of ways to interpret it, and that's what makes this story more compelling than your average superhero fare.

In part i think you've caught the whole point of New Avnegers(and the illuminati concept) so far(at least as far as i can understand it).
It is the sotry of a group of heroes, no doubt about that, that decide to carry on decision that they think other heroes are not qualified to take nor have the guts to sustain the consequences....aaaannd they screw things up so much that is strongly implied that they would end up alone(if they dont get attacked by their former firends). Also while the "sacrifice our soul so other don't have to" is typical ego stroke of wannabe martyrs. Is not up to them to decide if the other heroes should or should not sacrifice their soul. Is not up to them decide if those are the only two options available. Sure they are the smartest perons fo the world, but not the only smart person of the world, and to be honest their successes are more result of blind luck that their own job(hell in Tony case most of his ennemies self destroy themselves out of hubris, Reed get more help form Uatu than anyone in the universe and Namor is slowly driving the Atlantean race to extintion. And of course you never knwo who is worst Charles Xavier or Beast). And they know it. Thats why is very interesting to read.

[AcesX1X]

all of them have lost the moral high ground from now on. once they stop the incursions, they should surrender themselves for crimes against humanity.

[Mooper Films]

In part i think you've caught the whole point of New Avnegers(and the illuminati concept) so far(at least as far as i can understand it).
It is the sotry of a group of heroes, no doubt about that, that decide to carry on decision that they think other heroes are not qualified to take nor have the guts to sustain the consequences....aaaannd they screw things up so much that is strongly implied that they would end up alone(if they dont get attacked by their former firends). Also while the "sacrifice our soul so other don't have to" is typical ego stroke of wannabe martyrs. Is not up to them to decide if the other heroes should or should not sacrifice their soul. Is not up to them decide if those are the only two options available. Sure they are the smartest perons fo the world, but not the only smart person of the world, and to be honest their successes are more result of blind luck that their own job(hell in Tony case most of his ennemies self destroy themselves out of hubris, Reed get more help form Uatu than anyone in the universe and Namor is slowly driving the Atlantean race to extintion. And of course you never knwo who is worst Charles Xavier or Beast). And they know it. Thats why is very interesting to read.

Well said, that's why I enjoy this story, you know they are flawed and leads to the great point of just because you are the smartest or the most willing to sacrifice your soul for the better good. Does that really mean you have to.

[hawkeyefan]

personally I would. I don't think they themselves would. At least not for a while.

I think that's a good point. If it comes down to the worst case scenario, they certainly won't think of themselves as heroes.

I think that explains why they removed Cap from the equation. Because if they found themselves in that worst case scenario....either destroy an Earth or let two universes die....Cap would have kept looking for a way not to have to make that decision, and he's charismatic enough to cause at least some of them to hesitate. And hesitating in that moment would be very bad.

In part i think you've caught the whole point of New Avnegers(and the illuminati concept) so far(at least as far as i can understand it).
It is the sotry of a group of heroes, no doubt about that, that decide to carry on decision that they think other heroes are not qualified to take nor have the guts to sustain the consequences....aaaannd they screw things up so much that is strongly implied that they would end up alone(if they dont get attacked by their former firends). Also while the "sacrifice our soul so other don't have to" is typical ego stroke of wannabe martyrs. Is not up to them to decide if the other heroes should or should not sacrifice their soul. Is not up to them decide if those are the only two options available. Sure they are the smartest perons fo the world, but not the only smart person of the world, and to be honest their successes are more result of blind luck that their own job(hell in Tony case most of his ennemies self destroy themselves out of hubris, Reed get more help form Uatu than anyone in the universe and Namor is slowly driving the Atlantean race to extintion. And of course you never knwo who is worst Charles Xavier or Beast). And they know it. Thats why is very interesting to read.

It certainly is about the hubris of those few who think they can make decisions for the many. I think that's a big part of why the Illuminati is not just the big brains, but the characters who rule. We can all see the allegory to our own world leaders I think.

It takes a special kind o audacity to think that you know what is best for the world.

all of them have lost the moral high ground from now on. once they stop the incursions, they should surrender themselves for crimes against humanity.

Not until they actually go through with it. Until then, they are just preparing for the worst, which is what anyone should do.

[HUTHAIFA]

No, I understand that there are shades of gray. I just don't think that murdering billions is pretty firmly in the black, and I think that the Illuminati aren't heroes, they're cowards.

Also, please keep the talk on comics, and njot on the posters.

You realize that they are sacrificing billions of people , if they stand by and let an incursion happen. The regular person on earth would probably like to live, if they had a say

[Tonamelt]

Any team that includes Iron Man or Beast in its roster are far from being heroes.

They're anti-heroes, at best.

[StoneGold]

They're men pushed into an impossible situation by extreme circumstances. From their perspective, there are no heroes in this situation. You either fight and potentially commit cosmic genocide, or don't, and let your planet die.

[gregyo]

You realize that they are sacrificing billions of people , if they stand by and let an incursion happen. The regular person on earth would probably like to live, if they had a say

I bet the regular person on the other Earth would like to live too.

Think of it this way, to the other Earth, the Illuminati is no different from Thanos, Ultron, ot Galactus.

[ShaokhaN]

I bet the regular person on the other Earth would like to live too.

Think of it this way, to the other Earth, the Illuminati is no different from Thanos, Ultron, ot Galactus.

I'll be honest, I'm genuinely wondering to what extent you're interested in having an actual discussion about this topic given your responses - do you want to actually think about the issue or simply use this thread as an excuse to bash the Illuminati as much as you can?

Let's face the facts:
1. You wrote earlier in the thread "The Illuminati are just murdering billions". False. The Illuminati have not blown up another inhabited Earth yet. They haven't actually murdered anyone.
2. There have been cases of incursions resulting in the destruction of the two universes involved (see for example what happened during the incursion Hyperion faced).

Let's now imagine for a second that there is an incursion, that no solution has worked, and that we are seconds away from the end of the eight hours. The two Earths are about to collide, which will result in the destruction of both universes and the loss of trillion of lives. You have the possibility to blow up one of the two Earths. This will kill billions (that Earth's population) but save trillions (two universes and one Earth). The billions killed will also be killed anyway if you don't blow up their Earth. In other words, whether or not you blow up their Earth is irrelevant to their fate - they are going to die in a couple of seconds even if you don't blow it up. Which net result do you choose? Trillions alive, or everyone dead?