Should Wanda go on trial for for her actions? Or should Doom go on trial for his actions?

[Knives]

I think so. In any case, I think it might have been a bad idea to, after an event where the X-men were forced to play the villains in order for the Avengers to be the heroes, to have the person who has done more damage to the X-men than almost anyone else insult the X-men the one X-man's face in front of the grave of their dead leader.

Not the way to build good will with fans.

I certainly did not like the speech of her and if in place of Rogue think I would have done the same.

[Ravin' Ray]

Any writer doing that would be accused of throwing the mutants under the bus and marysueing the character.

Oh, sure, there will be people who won't budge, but if the story truly does its job and redeemed Wanda, then that writer has done all that he or she can. People will exercise their freedom to react as they please, but that won't take anything away from the story.

[Iron Maiden]

I think so. In any case, I think it might have been a bad idea to, after an event where the X-men were forced to play the villains in order for the Avengers to be the heroes, to have the person who has done more damage to the X-men than almost anyone else insult the X-men the one X-man's face in front of the grave of their dead leader.

Not the way to build good will with fans.



It didn't help that CC didn't make any sense. I certainly didn't notice a lot of Wanda-hate until Uncanny Avengers started. The worst I saw was people saying it was Wanda's fault the Phoenix showed up during AvX (which is true).

I never understood this mythos around the Phoenix as to why this entity would even care about the fate of one species on one planet. It was tacked on years later but I can't remember which story. X-Writers always wanted to make the mutants "special". They know their audience well. It so plays into the fears and views of adolescents. "Nobody loves me/or understands me" or their own "personal fable" which is a term used to describe their own belief that their feelings are unique and that they are special and immortal.

It reminds me of one bloggers (whose name I can't remember) description of the MU and relationships as a whole. The X-Men represented school days and adolescence (note that there is always a school involved in the titles). The Fantastic Four represent your family life for obvious reasons while the Avengers are more like a professional representation. They are a looser association of heroes that come together to perform a task or goal. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes not. They do their job and most of the time go back to a private life, unless they live at Avengers mansion of course.

[Ravin' Ray]

I never understood this mythos around the Phoenix as to why this entity would even care about the fate of one species on one planet.

I don't know if it's related to the view held by some that Jean Grey, a mutant of the human race, is the definitive host of the Phoenix Force. At any rate, humans are so special that Uatu himself told Aron during their battle in FF #400 that we have this enormous potential that could place us all in a cosmic level on par with the Watchers and Celestials.

[Emma's Midriff]

I never understood this mythos around the Phoenix as to why this entity would even care about the fate of one species on one planet. It was tacked on years later but I can't remember which story. X-Writers always wanted to make the mutants "special". They know their audience well. It so plays into the fears and views of adolescents. "Nobody loves me/or understands me" or their own "personal fable" which is a term used to describe their own belief that their feelings are unique and that they are special and immortal.

It reminds me of one bloggers (whose name I can't remember) description of the MU and relationships as a whole. The X-Men represented school days and adolescence (note that there is always a school involved in the titles). The Fantastic Four represent your family life for obvious reasons while the Avengers are more like a professional representation. They are a looser association of heroes that come together to perform a task or goal. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes not. They do their job and most of the time go back to a private life, unless they live at Avengers mansion of course.

You're post is kind of an offensive and nonsensical generalization.

[Wren]

I never understood this mythos around the Phoenix as to why this entity would even care about the fate of one species on one planet. It was tacked on years later but I can't remember which story. X-Writers always wanted to make the mutants "special". They know their audience well. It so plays into the fears and views of adolescents. "Nobody loves me/or understands me" or their own "personal fable" which is a term used to describe their own belief that their feelings are unique and that they are special and immortal.

It reminds me of one bloggers (whose name I can't remember) description of the MU and relationships as a whole. The X-Men represented school days and adolescence (note that there is always a school involved in the titles). The Fantastic Four represent your family life for obvious reasons while the Avengers are more like a professional representation. They are a looser association of heroes that come together to perform a task or goal. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes not. They do their job and most of the time go back to a private life, unless they live at Avengers mansion of course.

This is true. It doesn't really make sense that the phoenix, a multiversal force of death and rebirth, would personally come to fix one random dying species.

Then again the entire MU revolves around earth. It's why gigantic space empires somehow care about what Avengers or X-Men have to say about their affairs, why in infinity the avengers somehow ended up being the most competent in the space battles, etc. Somehow the heroes of earth are the strongest and most special in their universe and frequently in other universes that they visit. It's why both the sorcerer supreme and scientist supreme and the smartest man in the universe (Reed) are all from Earth, and they solve the problems of the multiverse while the rest of the universe is twiddling their thumbs.

[People Of The Earth]

Oh, sure, there will be people who won't budge, but if the story truly does its job and redeemed Wanda, then that writer has done all that he or she can. People will exercise their freedom to react as they please, but that won't take anything away from the story.

In your personal opinion, what would be the necessary step to achieve such a result with her ?
Even though she was possessed, she does feel terrible for what happened during M-day and showed willingness to help mutants to the best of her ability in CC. What could be done ? And in what format ?

I don't know if it's related to the view held by some that Jean Grey, a mutant of the human race, is the definitive host of the Phoenix Force. At any rate, humans are so special that Uatu himself told Aron during their battle in FF #400 that we have this enormous potential that could place us all in a cosmic level on par with the Watchers and Celestials.

Comes with the territory of this particular brand of fiction. Remember Rick Jones and the Destiny Force ?

[Moriarty]

how many 'Wanda on trial' threads have we had over the years? i've lost count.

[Mark]

Oh, sure, there will be people who won't budge, but if the story truly does its job and redeemed Wanda, then that writer has done all that he or she can. People will exercise their freedom to react as they please, but that won't take anything away from the story.

But we haven't really had a story like that.

I can understand some of the puzzlement when people think that I have a grudge against a fictional character. But I think they have to separate a bit my views on the fictional character and the actions of that character. That is the key. Pre-civil war I liked the stories that were told with Tony Stark (for the most part) and even during armor wars I saw only a control freak pushed over the edge and someone who paid for it. There was a logical reason, or at least one that made sense to me. The actions though I didn't like or agree with them made sense. During civil war I didn't see any of that. So because of his actions I didn't like the stories and the way he was written I didn't like the character. I waited to see if there'd be any sort of real consequence and there wasn't. In fact I got the sense that to the marvel writers Tony was the heroic ideal, that they embraced the ends justfied the means and like Starship Troopers (Heinlein book, not the movie) had decided that a totalitarian government was the best form of government for the mu. Since then they've done very little -almost nothing- that shows me that they intend ever again to write Tony as a good character. I don't like that and I don't like philosophy behind it so I say so. People think I have a grudge against the character; I don't. I have a grudge against the way he's being written and the stories and I won't read them until I see some hint that Tony Stark isn't a selfish manipulative sexist jerk.

When the writers and editors take a character into a dark place with no plan, no idea or even no conception that the character will need to come back again to be a character that can be liked, we have the situation with Wanda and others that we have now. Avengers Prime, Fantastic Four in the cw aftermath were all in my opinion stories tossed together in a half hearted effort to placate some fans. None of them gave me any reason to change my opinion about Tony or Reed. More than that the lack of action by other characters when should be doing something hurts even more. How can I respect a character that is being written in a way that shows that they have no self respect?

I think that Children's Crusade was a bad story and it caused more questions than it answered and Remenders terribly hack version of Uncanny Avengers built on a bad foundation tottered even more. It was a cookie cutter book with cliched characters and situations. Nothing in that book tells me that I should root for Wanda anymore than anything in Avengers Prime told me I should root for Tony anymore.

So I don't think I have a grudge against the characters as much as I have a grudge against the writers who bob and weave and dodge hard situations in favor of splash pages. Until they deal in a well written way with the actions of the characters I have very little reason to read those characters. Some consistency in characterization would be good too.

[Radix]

Regarding a trial for Wanda: depowering mutants isnt a crime, at least not one shown in the MU. Perhaps you could try her for several of the deaths she has caused; but if they were revived, then they werent legally dead. Besides the fact that she was suffering from a mental breakdown, and was thus incapable of her actions.
Doom as the monarch of a sovereign nation has diplomatic immunity. He could be tried in the internation courts for crimes against humanity, maybe. But the quality of life in Latveria looks okay, Doom's superiority complex aside.

[dragonmp93]

I never understood this mythos around the Phoenix as to why this entity would even care about the fate of one species on one planet. It was tacked on years later but I can't remember which story. X-Writers always wanted to make the mutants "special". They know their audience well. It so plays into the fears and views of adolescents. "Nobody loves me/or understands me" or their own "personal fable" which is a term used to describe their own belief that their feelings are unique and that they are special and immortal.

It reminds me of one bloggers (whose name I can't remember) description of the MU and relationships as a whole. The X-Men represented school days and adolescence (note that there is always a school involved in the titles). The Fantastic Four represent your family life for obvious reasons while the Avengers are more like a professional representation. They are a looser association of heroes that come together to perform a task or goal. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes not. They do their job and most of the time go back to a private life, unless they live at Avengers mansion of course.

So the X-men are bratty teenagers and the Avengers are professional adults; right, and then people call me paranoid for thinking things like that.

And given that The Phoenix is fused together with Jean Grey..............................

In your personal opinion, what would be the necessary step to achieve such a result with her ?
Even though she was possessed, she does feel terrible for what happened during M-day and showed willingness to help mutants to the best of her ability in CC. What could be done ? And in what format ?



Comes with the territory of this particular brand of fiction. Remember Rick Jones and the Destiny Force ?

Well, according to Uncanny Avengers, no, she doesnt feel a kind of guilt about M-day; ironically, the X-writers think the exact opposite.

Regarding a trial for Wanda: depowering mutants isnt a crime, at least not one shown in the MU. Perhaps you could try her for several of the deaths she has caused; but if they were revived, then they werent legally dead. Besides the fact that she was suffering from a mental breakdown, and was thus incapable of her actions.
Doom as the monarch of a sovereign nation has diplomatic immunity. He could be tried in the internation courts for crimes against humanity, maybe. But the quality of life in Latveria looks okay, Doom's superiority complex aside.

Yeah, she could be charge with property damage (the Avengers' mansion) or with homicide (of two Avengers), but given that the mutants arent even classified as people, or probably even as a sentient beings, it would be hard to charge her for what happened during House of M.

[Knives]

I never understood this mythos around the Phoenix as to why this entity would even care about the fate of one species on one planet. It was tacked on years later but I can't remember which story. X-Writers always wanted to make the mutants "special". They know their audience well. It so plays into the fears and views of adolescents. "Nobody loves me/or understands me" or their own "personal fable" which is a term used to describe their own belief that their feelings are unique and that they are special and immortal.

It reminds me of one bloggers (whose name I can't remember) description of the MU and relationships as a whole. The X-Men represented school days and adolescence (note that there is always a school involved in the titles). The Fantastic Four represent your family life for obvious reasons while the Avengers are more like a professional representation. They are a looser association of heroes that come together to perform a task or goal. Sometimes they are friends, sometimes not. They do their job and most of the time go back to a private life, unless they live at Avengers mansion of course.

Right then the X-men fans are a bunch of teenagers with emotional problems nothing to do with prejudice, racism, discrimination, rights, freedom and more recently a revolution that are the topics involving mutants.
I do not like reboots but maybe Secret Wars has its good points as finally end this rivalry between fans.

[Mark]

Regarding a trial for Wanda: depowering mutants isnt a crime, at least not one shown in the MU. Perhaps you could try her for several of the deaths she has caused; but if they were revived, then they werent legally dead. Besides the fact that she was suffering from a mental breakdown, and was thus incapable of her actions.
Doom as the monarch of a sovereign nation has diplomatic immunity. He could be tried in the internation courts for crimes against humanity, maybe. But the quality of life in Latveria looks okay, Doom's superiority complex aside.

Actually it is. Assault and Battery, General Law 265 section 13A A&B is the intentional and unjustified use of force against another, however slight or a reckless act that cause injury to another. Wanda's actions fulfill at least one elements of the crime as defined under that law. If you define her powers as a dangerous weapon then she's guilty under section 15B.
Doom's diplomatic immunity didn't work when Iron Man directed the Avengers to invade Latveria and capture him.

Going back in history the first trial in legend was the Orestia where Oresties was given a jury trial after murdering his mother (who murdered his father after his father had one of Oresties sisters murdered as a sacrifice to the gods before the Trojan war) and that principle has stayed with civilization for a long time now. A trial is a way to bring to account who have done wrong and determine if they are guilty or not. It's also a way for the people who have been wronged to see that justice of some sort is at least attempted, that society represented by the law deems their suffering worthy of redress.
Marvel in my opinion will have none of this. The social, legal and philosophical aspects of such a tale go far beyond the talent pool currently at the company and even if it didn't I've heard time and again that comic book buyers won't buy trial books. They want to keep things simple, they want to keep Wanda in the twilight zone between redemption and guilt because it's easy to write those stories and they sell. And marvel as a company will always go for the easy sell.

[Emma's Midriff]

Right then the X-men fans are a bunch of teenagers with emotional problems nothing to do with prejudice, racism, discrimination, rights, freedom and more recently a revolution that are the topics involving mutants.
I do not like reboots but maybe Secret Wars has its good points as finally end this rivalry between fans.

Perfect post. Glad that not everyone sees X-fans as angsty, entitled teenagers.

[Kirby Krackle]

Actually it is. Assault and Battery, General Law 265 section 13A A&B is the intentional and unjustified use of force against another, however slight or a reckless act that cause injury to another. Wanda's actions fulfill at least one elements of the crime as defined under that law. If you define her powers as a dangerous weapon then she's guilty under section 15B.

That could lead to defining mutants as weapons. Storywise that would open up a whole new can of worms, possibly with mutants being hated more than ever. But using real world penal codes is pretty nonsensical seeing as how these aren't real people who abide by our laws. For all we know the laws of the Marvel universe are different here and there. That's why applying real world logic doesn't always work.