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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    big problem is, scarlet's trial would rely HEAVILY on the testimony of victor von doom. without him, her whole defence case would fall apart. and everybody knows it too, which is why i suspect there's such a strong opposition to her facing justice.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    big problem is, scarlet's trial would rely HEAVILY on the testimony of victor von doom. without him, her whole defence case would fall apart. and everybody knows it too, which is why i suspect there's such a strong opposition to her facing justice.
    Not if they got his word to tell the truth.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    big problem is, scarlet's trial would rely HEAVILY on the testimony of victor von doom. without him, her whole defence case would fall apart. and everybody knows it too, which is why i suspect there's such a strong opposition to her facing justice.
    Maybe when this thread is closed down it should be replaced with a giant sticker that says "WHATEVER THE WRITERS AND EDITORS WANT TO HAPPEN, WILL HAPPEN."

    You talk like these are real people and the outcome would depend on the facts and evidence and available witnesses, as if any of these things aren't made up for the result the writer wants.

  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member AcesX1X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Not if they got his word to tell the truth.
    right but good luck getting him to answer his summons

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Maybe when this thread is closed down it should be replaced with a giant sticker that says "WHATEVER THE WRITERS AND EDITORS WANT TO HAPPEN, WILL HAPPEN."

    You talk like these are real people and the outcome would depend on the facts and evidence and available witnesses, as if any of these things aren't made up for the result the writer wants.
    If everything is made-up, then what's the point of discussing anything.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    If everything is made-up, then what's the point of discussing anything.
    Talking about how the story made us feel, how it was a bad or good story, that kind of thing? When we get into discussing what would happen at a trial that hasn't been written, though, that's just fan fiction.

    Also while the stories are made up, taken together there's an essence to the characters that the writer doesn't get to decide on. Which is why the Scarlet Witch is not a self-hating mutant even though she briefly was written as one in one speech in House of M. I like to say the stories are made up but the characters are sort of real, and a writer making up a bad story doesn't instantly change who the character is.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea Hound View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    I would have been OK with that, but it's not going to happen. Brevoort's said they're not going to go back and retell the story. A vague "Doom was somehow at fault" thing was all we got in AXIS and is all we're going to get, especially now that Secret Wars might change the characters in some ways.

    The explanation is vague because we have here a very powerful writer (Bendis) with a very popular story (House of M) who presumably does not want his story completely overturned and rejected. So Children's Crusade constantly threaded the needle to retcon stuff without really changing it. Nothing about Disassembled was actually changed, for example - the only thing that happened is that instead of dying, Scott Lang was plucked from the timestream as the explosion happened, but we didn't see the body in Disassembled so the story is still exactly the same. Doom's confession, or Hawkeye maybe sleeping with a Doombot, were ambiguous enough that we could still, if we wanted, believe that Bendis's stories happened exactly the way he wanted them to happen.

    I don't mind people not liking the explanation, but I think people who say "Doom must be lying, here's why" are being a little trollish. There is no way to "prove" what happened because it's all made-up. We have here a situation where readers are given the freedom to choose one of multiple explanations for what happened in Disassembled and House of M, and those of us who choose the "Wanda is innocent and being mind-controlled by Doom all along" explanation are simply playing by the rules.

    What I don't understand, again, is the people who are obsessed with the idea that someone must be "punished" for the mutants who fell out of the sky and the mutants who got depowered. Those things nearly all happened in books where Wanda didn't appear, and are exactly the same no matter whose "fault" they are. It's like, if you do a story about the fate of the broccoli people, I don't really care if it was Jean or a separate entity who ate the planet; the story is about the broccoli people and what happened to them. But some readers of Decimation have become obsessed with the idea that the only possible ending to the story is to identify a culprit and punish them, and I don't understand the thinking.
    I think Marvel are having their cake and eating it too. They've never clarified what happened, and as you said, the story as it exists allows for a few valid interpretations. If they don't want to revisit it, and explain what happened, then bringing it up, and hinting about it; (like in Axis), is just trolling a divided and frustrated readership.

    The thing with the broccoli people, is that aside from their death, they have no other presence. In theory, of course they matter, in practice no one gives a damn about them. We know nothing about them other than their death. No emotional investment. And Jean paid a huge price, for something that wasn't her fault. That story was never really about the broccoli people.
    HoM affected characters who've been in hundreds of comics, with real fans, in a lasting way. It also completely changed where the X-Franchise went. I'd like to hear a proper ending for the story; and I think Breevort is wrong not to allow it.

    A trial doesn't have to be a witch hunt. I hear what you're saying about some fans not being satisfied until she's strung up: I don't think that's the only possible, (or even likely) outcome. The thing with CC is that even in story, the writer was throwing doubt on her exoneration. It's not surprising that not all fans accept it. Especially when Bendis really went to town making her guilty, and the X-books spent years describing the consequences. So yes, I think there should be some consequences for whoever it was who was responsible.

    (Does Wanda even remember what happened out of interest? They took away her memory in CC, which I hate. Hated it with Iron Man post Civil war too.)
    According to Rememder, she remembers but she doesnt care at all, and sincerely doesnt get why anyone would still be angry at her for it.

    And about the broccoli people, Jean already paid for that, and she has been in a trial TWICE.

    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    The X-men are still heroes after all. They have first-hand experience with possession and mind-control.
    I'd think the fact Wanda was a hero for decades whilst Doom a world-class villain warrants Doom more credence when he says he dit it than what happened during HoM.
    Hence why the X-men should have come for Doom afterward, the same way they came after Wanda during CC.



    That's a normal feeling with Bendis' work at Marvel.



    I think too that she would be acquitted.
    Now, it wouldn't surprise me if the judge turned out to be Mystique or something.
    I can see her refusing to acknowledge the jury's decision to have Wanda acquitted and try to kill Wanda herself in the middle of the tribunal.



    I don't see you so judgmental about Magik and her spells.
    She's training with Strange, her magic is probably more nefarious than anyone else in 616, nevermind her own history in Limbo....
    Shaming Wanda for it doesn't rhyme to anything, when you have so many sorcerers and magicians who can do the same in 616.
    Well, given that Wanda is kind-of in the same category as the Phoenix, a malevolent planet-destroying force, so.....................
    Last edited by Joe Acro; 02-15-2015 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Removed negative comment

  8. #128
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    I'm afraid it does to me. For me part of the story is suspension of disbelief and part of that is thinking of these characters as real people with real lives. Yes the writers and editors are gods, they can decide what goes on in the title, but I get to decide if it is good or not and more I reserve to myself the right to decide why it is good or not. That is my right as a reader.

    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Talking about how the story made us feel, how it was a bad or good story, that kind of thing? When we get into discussing what would happen at a trial that hasn't been written, though, that's just fan fiction.

    Also while the stories are made up, taken together there's an essence to the characters that the writer doesn't get to decide on. Which is why the Scarlet Witch is not a self-hating mutant even though she briefly was written as one in one speech in House of M. I like to say the stories are made up but the characters are sort of real, and a writer making up a bad story doesn't instantly change who the character is.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    I'm afraid it does to me. For me part of the story is suspension of disbelief and part of that is thinking of these characters as real people with real lives. Yes the writers and editors are gods, they can decide what goes on in the title, but I get to decide if it is good or not and more I reserve to myself the right to decide why it is good or not. That is my right as a reader.
    Oh, that's fine. But this is where we have to differ. I feel like accepting every story as if it's equally "real" is a way of making the characters less real. If any story can change who a character is, with no buildup, then it's like the characters have no reality and are just puppets.

    For me, the characters have a reality to them that is earned from many years of stories, and no one story on its own can change that. That doesn't mean you can't show how a good character goes bad and the fans will never accept it. It just means a writer should have the burden of proof to show us how the character gets from this good place to this bad place. But if Batman suddenly starts snapping people's necks after decades when "Batman doesn't kill" is an essential part of his character? No way, that's not Batman, and even if the writer doesn't want it to be retconned as mind control, it certainly will be.

  10. #130
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin_O.A.W. View Post
    I disagree. The signs of Wanda's villainy started during Byrne's darker than Scarlett Story. Her corruption began waaaaay back then. This led to Disassembled, which in turn led to House of M.

    Agreed. Wanda tried to mask her corruption by allying herself with Doom.

    Just stop it. Admit that Wanda is one of the single greatest threats to the mutant universe ever and we will drop the matter.

    Yes, but they wanted to kill her prior to House of M. Remember, her Avengers friends wanted to do that, because of they knew from Disassembled and Darker than Scarlett about the villainy they faced.



    The difference is, is that they were doing things to save their friends, Wanda was doing it out of vengeance. She wanted to make the Avengers, her friends, pay for what they had done to her.

    Which is why you should never ally yourself with Doom.
    Really, the only 2 people in the room that wanted to kill Wanda at the start of House of M was Wolverine and Emma. Everyone else was pretty much against it. Steve flat out rejected it, and Scott questioned to Xavier why they were even considering it (which likley implied Xavier at least might have been on the fence though he never actually supported doing it).

    After House of M some of the X-Men might have wanted to kill her certainly... but the point of CC was one the possession/Doom reveal was made they decided to walk away and leave her be.

    The Avengers, SHIELD, and X-Men all know what happened and they all basically decided nothing more needed to be done. Which essentially was marvel saying nothing more needed to be done. People are still mad at her... but she was allowed to walk free. In that regard, its basically a dead issue.

    Since Marvel wants Wanda to be free, again the ONLY reason to put her on trial would be to give her an innocent verdict to give her more of a pass than she's already received. And I'm just not sure it's even worth it at this point.

  11. #131
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majin_O.A.W. View Post
    How was she controlled when she sought Doom out in the first place? How was she controlled when she wished vengeance on the Avengers. No this was not the case. The seeds of her corruption run deep. Plus she wasn't she a founding member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? One could argue that Wanda was never quite comfortable with the trappings of a hero and simply resorted back to her villainous ways.
    *sigh* more misinformed opinions. I thought all X-men fans would have read this story as I did years ago but Wanda and Pietro were rescued by Magneto from a mob that was attacking them because they had seen Wanda using her powers. Magneto took them into his group which already consisted of the Toad and Mastermind. They felt indebted to him for helping them but later left when they saw the kind of man he was. Maybe you should buy the Marvel Masterworks for the X-Men or get a Marvel Digital subscription and read up. The Maximoff siblings have been heroes for far longer than their brief association with Magneto. Black Widow and Hawkeye used to be Iron Man villains a long time ago. Do you still consider them "villainous"?
    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 02-12-2015 at 07:11 AM.

  12. #132
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    Here it goes Again, I will not exit this one as fast as I did the last one, will see where this one goes for the time being. =/


    Quote Originally Posted by Majin_O.A.W. View Post
    How was she controlled when she sought Doom out in the first place? How was she controlled when she wished vengeance on the Avengers. No this was not the case. The seeds of her corruption run deep. Plus she wasn't she a founding member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants? One could argue that Wanda was never quite comfortable with the trappings of a hero and simply resorted back to her villainous ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    *sigh* more misinformed opinions. I thought all X-men fans would have read this story as I did years ago but Wanda and Pietro were rescued by Magneto from a mob that was attacking them because they had seen Wanda using her powers. Magneto took them into his group which already consisted of the Toad and Mastermind. They felt indebted to him for helping them but later left when they saw the kind of man he was. Maybe you should buy the Marvel Masterworks for the X-Man or get a Marvel Digital subscription and read up. The Maximoff siblings have been heroes for far longer than their brief association with Magneto. Black Widow and Hawkeye used to be Iron Man villains a long time ago. Do you still consider them "villainous"?
    Yes, Facts of the story is how you put it Iron Maiden, both in the Origin 1960's and in the Avengers Origins Story, the Twins where not their cause of a belief in the Brotherhood or Villainy for that matter. They where held hostage to a debt they had to pay to Magneto cause they saved them from an angry mob. They had to repay him and need to since he was at his most Megalomaniac state in the comics at this time and he was Dangerous.

    Pretty Much they where never apart of the Brotherhood, they where hostage fighters of an Very Powerful and Dangerous Megalomaniac.


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  13. #133
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJStriker View Post
    Pretty Much they where never apart of the Brotherhood, they where hostage fighters of an Very Powerful and Dangerous Megalomaniac.
    I might add here that when they applied for Avengers membership they contrasted the camaraderie there with the fear and distrust in the Brotherhood and were encouraged by it. And prior to that they attempted to contact the Fantastic Four only to be rebuffed by Johnny and Ben.
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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    I might add here that when they applied for Avengers membership they contrasted the camaraderie there with the fear and distrust in the Brotherhood and were encouraged by it. And prior to that they attempted to contact the Fantastic Four only to be rebuffed by Johnny and Ben.
    Indeed Ravin' Ray, I know the moment you are talking about with Johnny and Ben, sadly I don't have an image. I do have the one where they are applying to the Avengers in Avengers #16 and indeed that is where they would find the opposite view of the Horror and Captivity they experience in the Brotherhood.

    It was also referenced in Avengers #16 their experience with the Brotherhood:



    "By Earth and Sky, By Craft and Hex -- By The Past and The Future – I Call HOPE Forth From The DARKNESS! I Speak The Words We Made Into MAGIC! Let THEIR Power Augment Our OWN! To Strike ONE BLOW From Our HEARTS and SOULS – From ALL THAT WE ARE! Let The CALL Go Forth -- AVENGERS! ASSEMBLE!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff ~~ From Avengers #689!

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  15. #135
    Ultimate Member Fokken's Avatar
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    Should Wanda go on Trial?

    I dunno.
    But it IS something I'd very much enjoy seeing addressed -- and not just with Wanda, but with various other heroes and heroines who've done some pretty epic feck ups of recent.

    Beast's continued tampering with the space/time contiuum for example.
    Cyclops's not-so-revolutionary-Revolution, post Phoenix-fication.
    Wolverine's many kill squads -- which I still feel wasn't addressed as appropriately as it could have been within the Uncanny Avengers.

    I'd really like to see justifications for treatment of Cyclops vs. Wanda in particular.
    Is it simply that Wanda "gave herself up", upon her return, that kept her out of prison, whereas Cyclops was more-so "taken in" ?
    Its these little details that I'm very interested in.

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