Black Panther (Hickman upgraded) vs. Dr. Doom

[Francisco]

t'challa is a genius, Francisco...but he is not on Reed or Doom's level...as he has been portrayed consistently

What has been consistent about T'Challa's portrayal is that he gets the short end of the stick whenever he's written by white writers. Writers who come in claiming to love the character but waste no time screwing him over.

[Pendaran]

A story written back when Wakanda was depicted as a bunch of huts piled together and the Wakandans were little more than stereotypical natives with no tech. Bp goes from outsmarting Reed and nearly defeating the Fantastic Four to just some dude who jumps around in black pajamas.

By that logic I could say "a story written back when Reed was a guy who could be hurt and knocked around by human+ punches to the face", but we can always just take the whole thing at face value anyway it basically means T'challa with all his tech, help from his soldiers, luring the FF to Wakanda itself under false pretenses, attacking from ambush, prep time to make traps tailored to them, still ultimately lost to the Fantastic Four+Wyatt Wingfoot.

[master of read]

What has been consistent about T'Challa's portrayal is that he gets the short end of the stick whenever he's written by white writers. Writers who come in claiming to love the character but waste no time screwing him over.

so BP losses because he's written by the man?

[Pendaran]

How did the encounters with The FF end for Doom in those days? I guess he won them all

I guess I just find it interesting that you view "T'challa outsmarting Reed" involving an encounter where despite everything down to one sided prep, he still lost. This is your argument for that he shouldn't be someone Doom can take out. Doom, who has conquered the entire world, then given it back out of functional boredom.

[Random4]

What has been consistent about T'Challa's portrayal is that he gets the short end of the stick whenever he's written by white writers. Writers who come in claiming to love the character but waste no time screwing him over.

no it has to do with the fact that T'challa is not as smart as Reed or Doom, he has no where near the feats that Victor and Reed have... T'challa is a genius no doubt..but he isn't on their level simple as that

[Random4]

I guess I just find it interesting that you view "T'challa outsmarting Reed" involving an encounter where despite everything down to one sided prep, he still lost. This is your argument for that he shouldn't be someone Doom can take out. Doom, who has conquered the entire world, then given it back out of functional boredom.

and the fact that t'challa had to have reed's help to beat him in doomwar

[Francisco]

so BP losses because he's written by the man?

No. He loses when he is written by bad writers who doesn't bother to get his characterization right. Mabery was just interested in adding another notch to Doom's belt. He sacrificed Wakanda and deconstructed T'Challa. The hero is supposed to win and look cool not the villain. You don't see Captain America getting his ass kicked by The Red Skull. So why can't T'Challa defeat Doom and save his country. There's a huge elephant in the room if you can't see it is not my problem.

[Random4]

No. He loses when he is written by bad writers who doesn't bother to get his characterization right. Mabery was just interested in adding another notch to Doom's belt. He sacrificed Wakanda and deconstructed T'Challa. The hero is supposed to win and look cool not the villain. You don't see Captain America getting his ass kicked by The Red Skull. So why can't T'Challa defeat Doom and save his country. There's a huge elephant in the room if you can't see it is not my problem.

because T'challa is not on Doom's level in intelligence, and strategic ability its simple as that


thats like saying a story that involves Luke Cage vs. Thanos should always end in Luke Cage winning cause he is the "hero" despite the fact that Thanos is 100 times more powerful than him

[master of read]

No. He loses when he is written by bad writers who doesn't bother to get his characterization right. Mabery was just interested in adding another notch to Doom's belt. He sacrificed Wakanda and deconstructed T'Challa. The hero is supposed to win and look cool not the villain. You don't see Captain America getting his ass kicked by The Red Skull. So why can't T'Challa defeat Doom and save his country. There's a huge elephant in the room if you can't see it is not my problem.

now come on. you've been warned about how we debate here. you can not fake ignorance on this matter. so for you to say this is almost funny in how bad it is.

and if race has nothing to do with what you are saying, why bring up the race of the writers who you say dont get how BP should be portrayed?

[Pendaran]

No. He loses when he is written by bad writers who doesn't bother to get his characterization right. Mabery was just interested in adding another notch to Doom's belt. He sacrificed Wakanda and deconstructed T'Challa. The hero is supposed to win and look cool not the villain. You don't see Captain America getting his ass kicked by The Red Skull. So why can't T'Challa defeat Doom and save his country. There's a huge elephant in the room if you can't see it is not my problem.

So, when he lost to the FF in his very first appearance due to not being able to plan for the involvement of all of Wyatt Wingfoot, was that him being written by bad writers who don't bother to get his characterization right?

[Francisco]

So, when he lost to the FF in his very first appearance due to not being able to plan for the involvement of all of Wyatt Wingfoot, was that him being written by bad writers who don't bother to get his characterization right?

Was it any different from the ways Doom lost to the FF by overconfidence or by overlooking some tiny detail? The matter of the fact is that he defeated them but later they were released by Wyatt Wingfoot but he had already taken them out.

At that time he had already built the techno jungle and a lot of incredible high tech equipment and facilities but miraculously when Doom invaded Wakanda years later Roy Thomas or I don't know who decide that Wakanda was just a bunch of tiny huts put together and that Wakandas were a bunch of savages. Tchalla himself didn't have any tech to fight off Doom. Mabery ignored everything that was added by Christopher Priest and later by Hudlin. His mind was set on making Doom look good at T'Challas and Wakanda's expenses. So T'Challa isn't as smart as Doom? This is the guy who outsmarted Mephisto and even defeated the fellow avatar of the Panther God on his own.

[Francisco]

now come on. you've been warned about how we debate here. you can not fake ignorance on this matter. so for you to say this is almost funny in how bad it is.

and if race has nothing to do with what you are saying, why bring up the race of the writers who you say dont get how BP should be portrayed?

I'm talking about the events of Doomwar not about the particular rumble.

[master of read]

I'm talking about the events of Doomwar not about the particular rumble.

regardless, you aren't debating properly which is against the rules, which you have obviously not bothered to read, basis on your "logic".

[master of read]

Was it any different from the ways Doom lost to the FF by overconfidence or by overlooking some tiny detail? The matter of the fact is that he defeated them but later they were released by Wyatt Wingfoot but he had already taken them out.

At that time he had already built the techno jungle and a lot of incredible high tech equipment and facilities but miraculously when Doom invaded Wakanda years later Roy Thomas or I don't know who decide that Wakanda was just a bunch of tiny huts put together and that Wakandas were a bunch of savages. Tchalla himself didn't have any tech to fight off Doom. Mabery ignored everything that was added by Christopher Priest and later by Hudlin. His mind was set on making Doom look good at T'Challas and Wakanda's expenses. So T'Challa isn't as smart as Doom? This is the guy who outsmarted Mephisto and even defeated the fellow avatar of the Panther God on his own.

when BP invents a time machine that doesn't interfere with how marvel time travel works, then you can say he's as smart as doom. until then, nope.

[Francisco]

when BP invents a time machine that doesn't interfere with how marvel time travel works, then you can say he's as smart as doom. until then, nope.

Why would he invent a time machine? He has no interest or intention in changing the past. Never said he was as smart as Doom. He doesn't have to be to beat him. He is a genius and used to have a country full of geniuses and almost limitless resources.