Who among Superman's villains should be "relatable"?

[DochaDocha]

What do you guys think?

[daBronzeBomma]

Lex Luthor.

That's it, the only one from his alpha rogues who should be relatable.

The rest should be literally and/or figuratively god-like in power and abilities.

I'm just so tired of the misunderstood "sympathetic" super-villain mentality (looking right at you, Marvel). It's gotten too pervasive in superhero tales. Give me some unapologetic selfish bastards who have no qualms about what they are and why they do what they do.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Honestly, almost all of them to some tiny extent, simply because you're supposed to see Superman as admirable in hoping for the best from them, instead of just bone-stupid naïve. But actually "I get them, maybe there's hope there" sympathetic? Luthor, maybe Zod depending on how he's played, Bizarro. That's about it.

[llozymandias]

Depends on what you mean by "relatable". Too often when a character is described as relatable, that means they are a kind of everyman. If that is the kind of relatability you are talking about, then I say none of Superman's villains should be relatable. To me, all characters are relatable. It just takes imagination, & the ability to mentally put yourself in that character's place.

[llozymandias]

Lex Luthor.

That's it, the only one from his alpha rogues who should be relatable.

The rest should be literally and/or figuratively god-like in power and abilities.

I'm just so tired of the misunderstood "sympathetic" super-villain mentality (looking right at you, Marvel). It's gotten too pervasive in superhero tales. Give me some unapologetic selfish bastards who have no qualms about what they are and why they do what they do.

Sorry I have to completely disagree about Lex. He should never be a "relatable everyman" or a "mis-guided good guy".

[daBronzeBomma]

Sorry I have to completely disagree about Lex. He should never be a "relatable everyman" or a "mis-guided good guy".

Think we have different definitions of "relatable".

I feel Lex Luthor is the embodiment of pride and selfishness. It's just, unlike most villains, he does do things that benefit other people (tho truly never at his own expense), like keep them employed, give them healthcare benefits through LexCorp. Luthor can do things for people that Superman just can't. Superman can't employ people, gainfully or otherwise. Superman can't pay for people's medical expenses. But Luthor can and does. Not because he's a good guy (he's not), but because it serves his purpose. Luthor could (and probably has) discovered the cure for cancer, but won't release it unless/until it suits his needs. That's evil, but it's an evil I can at least comprehend and understand, however much I disagree with it.

I prefer Lex to be complex, and one of the reasons that Superman doesn't just put Lex in a coma and be done with him (aside from Supes being a good guy) is that Lex represents and understands the darker aspects of humanity that Superman can't just "inspire" away with his deeds.

There's nothing everyman about Lex Luthor. But I don't see him as a complete monster at all.

[Johnny Thunders!]

The Parasite, especially if you battle addiction, comics or whatever.

[Vanguard-01]

I agree with daBronzeBomma about Lex Luthor. I see Lex and Superman as two halves of the same coin. One man uses his power for purely selfish reasons. One man uses his power for purely selfless and altruistic reasons. If Luthor ever shows altruism, it's because there's something in it for him. That makes Lex a scumbag, but our world is full of scumbags who are exactly like him. That makes him relatable and understandable.

Other than Lex? I would say that Zod and his followers should be relatable. Zod, at his core, is a military leader who lost his whole planet and now believes that the responsibility for safeguarding the future of the people he has sworn to protect has fallen squarely on his shoulders.

I really don't actually like the whole "Kneel before Zod" conqueror-for-conquest's-sake versions of Zod. I believe Zod should be a leader who can be as noble and good-intentioned as Superman at times. The only thing that keeps Zod from BEING Superman is that he has different priorities than Superman. Zod will do what it takes to protect Krypton's legacy, and if Earth or anyone else stands in the way of that, then he will eliminate them with ruthless efficiency.

Zod's followers should also be like this. They're soldiers who took up arms to protect their people. Now that they are among the few survivors of Krypton, they're more desperate than ever to insure that Krypton will not fade away and be forgotten. These are very human and understandable goals.

[Ascended]

Well, aside from Lex.....

Metallo, depending on how he's handled, has a certain sympathetic charm to him. He's often the pawn of greater forces and keener minds, has generally lost the sensation of touch (which adds to his psychosis), and despite being a real villainous douche, is more a victim of greater villains than anything. I think there's something to Metallo that really speaks to the innate vulnerability of people, and how we try to master those outside forces that manipulate us, and build walls around ourselves. Sadly, most writers just make him a psycho with a grudge, so a lot of the subtlety gets lost.

I've never seen it done in a manner that appeals to me, but Parasite should be an equally sympathetic/tragic character that explores certain aspects of the human condition. But as with Metallo, the character has rarely lived up to that potential.

Zod, depending on how he's written and what his motivations are.

Generally though, most of Superman's villains are less relateable than they are metaphors for abstract concepts, and I like it that way. Superman himself is a metaphor for abstract concepts, and his battles should typically expound that sort of mythological, "god against god, for the soul of humanity" vibe.

[Agent Z]

Zod and Bizarro.

Lex Luthor.

That's it, the only one from his alpha rogues who should be relatable.

The rest should be literally and/or figuratively god-like in power and abilities.

I'm just so tired of the misunderstood "sympathetic" super-villain mentality (looking right at you, Marvel). It's gotten too pervasive in superhero tales. Give me some unapologetic selfish bastards who have no qualms about what they are and why they do what they do.

I don't think it's as pervasive as the opposite approach. Even Marvel still has its fair share of irredeemable monsters. Remember that's the universe that has the Red Skull.

[Lord of Narrative]

The Parasite, especially if you battle addiction, comics or whatever.

the way I would do Parasite, since businessman Lex is the ultimate "evil rich guy", would be to make him a rarely used "evil poor person", a reverse Elysium. Make him steal identities, food, credit cards, and government subsidies before he becomes mutated, being a "parasite" beforehand.

Honestly, I think there should be less of a push for "relatable" villains and more "topical" ones, or ones who at least have some kind of theme that can be applied.

Luthor: evil rich guy; 1%
Parasite: abuse of handouts, nanny state, freeloader
Metallo: jingoistic soldier, technology, post humanism
Cheetah: Britain's love of stealing Egypt's stuff, corrupt archaeology
Ares: war mongering

[DochaDocha]

the way I would do Parasite, since businessman Lex is the ultimate "evil rich guy", would be to make him a rarely used "evil poor person", a reverse Elysium. Make him steal identities, food, credit cards, and government subsidies before he becomes mutated, being a "parasite" beforehand.

Honestly, I think there should be less of a push for "relatable" villains and more "topical" ones, or ones who at least have some kind of theme that can be applied.

Luthor: evil rich guy; 1%
Parasite: abuse of handouts, nanny state, freeloader
Metallo: jingoistic soldier, technology, post humanism
Cheetah: Britain's love of stealing Egypt's stuff, corrupt archaeology
Ares: war mongering

Quickie question: are you bringing up Cheetah and Ares just as examples of how they should be "topical," or do you mean they should be such villains for Superman, too?

Reading your suggestion about Ares made me think perhaps Maxie Zeus should come back, but he has a similarly-deranged family member who thinks he's Ares and therefore becomes a war profiteer.

[K. Jones]

I like that Supes has a sort of three-tiered approach of "Earth Rogues", "Krypton Rogues" and "God Tier Cosmic Rogues".

Luthor's the obvious call. So many other Earth guys end up being inhuman nuclear monsters or cyborgs and have their humanity stripped away. It's the classic dark mirror to Superman and guys like Parasite, Metallo, Atomic Skull, etc ... turn into total monsters. Even their motivations get pretty shaky.

It's okay to know Zod's motivation but I like him when he's not too sympathetic. He's the ultimate epitome of the dark side of a super-science culture full of supermen. The whole fascistic superiority complex thing. The "my way or the highway" whereas Superman listens and respects everyone. I mean as imperfect, clannish humans, Zod is still scarily relatable to us.

In the god tier things get pretty archetypal. Or just weird.

[Lord of Narrative]

Quickie question: are you bringing up Cheetah and Ares just as examples of how they should be "topical," or do you mean they should be such villains for Superman, too?

Reading your suggestion about Ares made me think perhaps Maxie Zeus should come back, but he has a similarly-deranged family member who thinks he's Ares and therefore becomes a war profiteer.

No, Ares and Cheetah are WW foes. As is doctor Psycho, who would be a psychic rapist. Silver Swan is a battered woman allegory, Giganta is........just an evil b##ch, Dr. Poison and Veronica Cale are comments on the food and drug association, and a heavily changed Minister Blizzard as a cult leader.

For Superman,
Zod: Somewhat deranged military leader who longs to forcefully bring back Krypton's glory (allegory for nostalgia, peace through tyranny)
Myx: Much darker than usual, emphasizes Superman's role as a sci-fi character, showing him different realities and futurue's that he's "messed with for fun", allegory for abuse of godlike power)

[Slaughter]

I think Bizarro is quite relatable too, in that Frankstein's monster way. Its beyond me why we never got a story where Supes tries to heal poor Bizarro - heck, should Bizarro even be healed? For all he know, Bizarro perceives reality in a different but equally valid way. Bizarro is a (imperfect) clone, that means Supes should see him as his brother. Only time I remember Bizarro being healed was by a villain, Manchester Black.

the way I would do Parasite, since businessman Lex is the ultimate "evil rich guy", would be to make him a rarely used "evil poor person", a reverse Elysium. Make him steal identities, food, credit cards, and government subsidies before he becomes mutated, being a "parasite" beforehand.

Honestly, I think there should be less of a push for "relatable" villains and more "topical" ones, or ones who at least have some kind of theme that can be applied.

Luthor: evil rich guy; 1%
Parasite: abuse of handouts, nanny state, freeloader
Metallo: jingoistic soldier, technology, post humanism
Cheetah: Britain's love of stealing Egypt's stuff, corrupt archaeology
Ares: war mongering

I like the idea of Parasite as a poor evil person. After all, poor is not good and rich is not evil.
Don't forget Lex works as a technocratic villain too - the scientific elite vs the poor commoners who cannot enjoy all the benefits of science.

I like that Supes has a sort of three-tiered approach of "Earth Rogues", "Krypton Rogues" and "God Tier Cosmic Rogues".

Luthor's the obvious call. So many other Earth guys end up being inhuman nuclear monsters or cyborgs and have their humanity stripped away. It's the classic dark mirror to Superman and guys like Parasite, Metallo, Atomic Skull, etc ... turn into total monsters. Even their motivations get pretty shaky.

It's okay to know Zod's motivation but I like him when he's not too sympathetic. He's the ultimate epitome of the dark side of a super-science culture full of supermen. The whole fascistic superiority complex thing. The "my way or the highway" whereas Superman listens and respects everyone. I mean as imperfect, clannish humans, Zod is still scarily relatable to us.

In the god tier things get pretty archetypal. Or just weird.

You forgot the fourth tier - Aliens, villains like Brainiac, Mongul, Doomsday, etc. Strange alien beings from the unknown void of space, with wants and desires and needs far different from humans and kryptonians (who are quite alike).