Racial Artwork in Punisher # 15

[Andy]

Put me down in the crowd that thinks it's a mistake. Maybe he was just trying to make the character (not sure who he is or what the context is) make a face, or as others have mentioned, a colorist issue.


If he's not drawn like that throughout the entire book, I just can't bring myself to automatically assume the worst of the artists.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

The only odd part is the size and coloring of the lips (the coloring of course not done by the penciller), the rest of the face isn't abnormal. Remember though that someone as universally well known as Jay-Z has abnormally large lips, and our (assuming you're American) president has lips with more of a purplish coloring, so while odd (and certainly not some racist conspiracy by the penciller and colorer), it's not some sort of abstract bigoted Sambo caricature.

[Kirby Krackle]

(the coloring of course not done by the penciller)

Not in this case. He's also the colorist on the book.

[leo619]

The only odd part is the size and coloring of the lips (the coloring of course not done by the penciller), the rest of the face isn't abnormal. Remember though that someone as universally well known as Jay-Z has abnormally large lips, and our (assuming you're American) president has lips with more of a purplish coloring, so while odd (and certainly not some racist conspiracy by the penciller and colorer), it's not some sort of abstract bigoted Sambo caricature.

Jay Z? Really now, let's bring a picture of Jay Z so you can see.



As you can see with the photo, even though his lips is consider larger than normal, they are NO where NEAR the lip size as the artist portrays the character, his lips, like normal humans, are half the size of his nose. The artist drew the lips as literally the biggest part of the face. So yes, there's a reason why people are calling out this piece because it's clearly stereotypical

[hawkeyefan]

Jay Z? Really now, let's bring a picture of Jay Z so you can see.

As you can see with the photo, even though his lips is consider larger than normal, they are NO where NEAR the lip size as the artist portrays the character, his lips, like normal humans, are half the size of his nose. The artist drew the lips as literally the biggest part of the face. So yes, there's a reason why people are calling out this piece because it's clearly stereotypical

But do you think this was done intentionally? And if it wasn't, does that change things?

[leo619]

But do you think this was done intentionally? And if it wasn't, does that change things?

Rather if it was intentional or not is not the point, if it was intentional, than he was clearly being a bigot, if it wasn't intentional, than the artist has subconscious stereotypes regarding what black people look like. In either case, the artist needs to do some soul searching and challenge his on viewpoint, especially if he wants to work in a field that customers includes the ethnic type that he stereotyped. The editor as well also should have looked at this carefully, but he isn't as much to blame as the artist who created this travesty in my opinion.

[hawkeyefan]

Rather if it was intentional or not is not the point, if it was intentional, than he was clearly being a bigot, if it wasn't intentional, than the artist has subconscious stereotypes regarding what black people look like. In either case, the artist needs to do some soul searching and challenge his on viewpoint, especially if he wants to work in a field that customers includes the ethnic type that he stereotyped. The editor as well also should have looked at this carefully, but he isn't as much to blame as the artist who created this travesty in my opinion.

But couldn't it have been a mistake? Every other depiction of the character is fine, which would lead me to believe that there was some kind of error or something that led to this.

Perhaps he messed up the face and redrew it a couple times and could never get it quite right and then tried to fix it in the inking or coloring stage and this is the result. With deadlines involved they may not have been able to do anything else about it.

What I said above is pure conjecture, but I am just saying it because I don't know if it's fair to label the artist as a bigot or anything like that.

I do see why folks consider the picture offensive, and I do think that they should have attempted to correct it at the editorial level. But for some reason they didn't. I can understand criticizing that, but I can't condemn the artist. There is too much we don't know, and every other instance of the character looks fine.

[leo619]

But couldn't it have been a mistake? Every other depiction of the character is fine, which would lead me to believe that there was some kind of error or something that led to this.

Perhaps he messed up the face and redrew it a couple times and could never get it quite right and then tried to fix it in the inking or coloring stage and this is the result. With deadlines involved they may not have been able to do anything else about it.

What I said above is pure conjecture, but I am just saying it because I don't know if it's fair to label the artist as a bigot or anything like that.

I do see why folks consider the picture offensive, and I do think that they should have attempted to correct it at the editorial level. But for some reason they didn't. I can understand criticizing that, but I can't condemn the artist. There is too much we don't know, and every other instance of the character looks fine.

Oh no one is saying he's doing it purposely, as I stated before, it's quite possible that the issue could be unintentional. Because if it wasn't a mistake and was done purposely, he quite frankly would be a bigot. But even if it was unintentional/mistake, this mistake still hinges on the ordeal of stereotypical outlining of black people, and that's why I said either case requires soul searching.

To use a very recent example in a similar but different case. The recent oscar interview regarding claiming for equal woman rights. In an interview afterwards, she stated that it's time for LGBT, People of Color and others to fight for women rights for equality. But people took to task her claim as it provided the idea that LGBT women and Women of Color were not included in the fight for women rights. She later clarified her points on twitter, stating that women of color suffer the greatest from wage distribution and etc, and attempted to confirm that she was talking about all women in regards to equal pay. But her mistake clearly reflected an issue of white privilege by subconsciously forgetting at that moment that people of color and lgbt also included women.

So both indications illustrates that the very least, some self reflection is in order in regards to stereotypical racial bias that maybe in the subconscious if it is a mistake, and for the artist if it wasn't a mistake, than well he's a bigot.

[Captain Haddock]

Don't think there's any soul-searching or reflection in order beyond 'how the heck did I not catch that?' If I were the artist I wouldn't even beat myself up about the original bad piece of art, it would be when as the colourist of the same piece I still don't notice/correct it that would be pretty negligent. It's literally one panel of one character that in every other instant is drawn in a non-stereotypical way, one panel doesn't stand as evidence of some sort of subconscious racist mindset. If he'd done it before it would be a totally different story but as far as I'm concerned this is just a bad drawing of someone who happens to be of colour. The art is bad, objectively, no-one catching it or bothering to correct it if they did is pretty negligent. But definitely not racist, at all.

[QBall]

The panel was just a badly drawn/coloured panel. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone wants to say that Mitch Gerads is communicating racism through his art then take it to him and Marvel directly.

[sbo]

Rather if it was intentional or not is not the point, if it was intentional, than he was clearly being a bigot, if it wasn't intentional, than the artist has subconscious stereotypes regarding what black people look like. In either case, the artist needs to do some soul searching and challenge his on viewpoint, especially if he wants to work in a field that customers includes the ethnic type that he stereotyped. The editor as well also should have looked at this carefully, but he isn't as much to blame as the artist who created this travesty in my opinion.

I agree with this, subconscious prejudicial beliefs can lead to as many problems as overt racism.

I also think that the overall quality of artists (and editors) at Marvel had gone down drastically, everyone expects the art to look like crap now, so of course that's what you'll get.

[hawkeyefan]

Oh no one is saying he's doing it purposely, as I stated before, it's quite possible that the issue could be unintentional. Because if it wasn't a mistake and was done purposely, he quite frankly would be a bigot. But even if it was unintentional/mistake, this mistake still hinges on the ordeal of stereotypical outlining of black people, and that's why I said either case requires soul searching.

To use a very recent example in a similar but different case. The recent oscar interview regarding claiming for equal woman rights. In an interview afterwards, she stated that it's time for LGBT, People of Color and others to fight for women rights for equality. But people took to task her claim as it provided the idea that LGBT women and Women of Color were not included in the fight for women rights. She later clarified her points on twitter, stating that women of color suffer the greatest from wage distribution and etc, and attempted to confirm that she was talking about all women in regards to equal pay. But her mistake clearly reflected an issue of white privilege by subconsciously forgetting at that moment that people of color and lgbt also included women.

So both indications illustrates that the very least, some self reflection is in order in regards to stereotypical racial bias that maybe in the subconscious if it is a mistake, and for the artist if it wasn't a mistake, than well he's a bigot.

Okay, fair enough. Based on the character's depiction in every other panel I've seen, my take is that it was a mistake of a far more mundane type. But that's just how I see it.

Don't think there's any soul-searching or reflection in order beyond 'how the heck did I not catch that?' If I were the artist I wouldn't even beat myself up about the original bad piece of art, it would be when as the colourist of the same piece I still don't notice/correct it that would be pretty negligent. It's literally one panel of one character that in every other instant is drawn in a non-stereotypical way, one panel doesn't stand as evidence of some sort of subconscious racist mindset. If he'd done it before it would be a totally different story but as far as I'm concerned this is just a bad drawing of someone who happens to be of colour. The art is bad, objectively, no-one catching it or bothering to correct it if they did is pretty negligent. But definitely not racist, at all.

That sums it up pretty well for me.

[QBall]

I also think that the overall quality of artists (and editors) at Marvel had gone down drastically, everyone expects the art to look like crap now, so of course that's what you'll get.

I'd have to argue against that. There are quite a few artists on Marvel's books that I really, really like. Unfortunately they're being paired with writers/characters I don't like so that's why I'm skipping their books. My budget is such that I can't just buy things based on pretty pictures now, I need to be able to get behind the whole package before handing over my cash.

[butterflykyss]

Everyone wants to talk about the Spider-Woman cover and how sexual it was but no one is talking about this racial artwork in Punisher #15. The way Mitch Gerads draws the character Sidewinder is typical of how Blacks where drawn in the early 40's.

there is nothing wrong with this image. Showing a black character dark skinned with full lips is racist how? I seriously don't see what the issue is.

[dragonmp93]

there is nothing wrong with this image. Showing a black character dark skinned with full lips is racist how? I seriously don't see what the issue is.

Didnt you know ?. Its also racist if a black charácter is good at basketball or is eating watermelon or fried chicken.