X-Men #24 Spoilers/Discussion Thread: Psylocke

[Tunasammiches]

Oh I get that - I just don't think Psylocke or M would defer to someone else to sense emotions - definitely not Betsy anyway. Maybe if it was something more complicated, like those things have weird alien minds Rachel is better at deciphering?

Oh you're saying they shouldn't have to depend on Ray for that stuff cause it's a basic skill they've all done before. Sure I can see that. They were just being lazy telepaths I guess. (Telepaths are habitually lazy as is illustrated on those max whittart 'Scott & jean' comic strips.)

[Kurolegacy]

You know it's kinda strange that Storm would doubt the existence of the afterlife when Nightcrawler is a testament to its existence. Hell she was one of the X-Men who was pulled into the world of the afterlife by the bamfs to help Kurt.

[Tazirai]

You know it's kinda strange that Storm would doubt the existence of the afterlife when Nightcrawler is a testament to its existence. Hell she was one of the X-Men who was pulled into the world of the afterlife by the bamfs to help Kurt.

Comic books are the only place I can believe in an afterlife, since you can see many of them. But I can see Storms point.

[Kurolegacy]

Comic books are the only place I can believe in an afterlife, since you can see many of them. But I can see Storms point.

Yes but when you've literally been there, there's no denying its existence. It'd be like wondering if gods exist after partying with both Thor and Hercules.

[shgs]

A few moments of clunky dialogue this issue aside (the 'pain is important' moment stood out in particular - as if Betsy wouldn't know - Rachel sounded like she was in a classroom, not in the middle of a battle) I really enjoyed the efforts to make each character feel unique and have their own voice.

Indeed, the Rachel/Jean stuff needs to stop. They're very different, we don't need to give any Rachel naysayers any ammo when trying to deny her being in any Marvel game that has the X-Men because "they already have Jean". I had to beat back the crew on Marvel Heroes for months until they came threw and realized that Rachel is very different from Jean.

Too bad poor Rachel keeps getting lumped together with Jean even to this day. Took a lot to convince the Marvel Heroes community that Rachel cannot be a costume for her vastly different mother.

Could you explain what is so wrong with Rachel being compared to her mother in this instance? I haven't read a great many Rachel stories over the years, so perhaps there is some huge elephant in the room I am missing, but Jean is her mother (alternative universe or otherwise); of course there are similarities. They look similar, they have the same abilities, of course she probably uses her telepathy in the same way. And just because there are similarities, that doesn't make them the same character. No one would ever call Wolverine and X-23 the same character, despite having the same powers, claws and sharing a few personality quirks.

Your objection seems to be that some fans see her has an ersatz Jean. A good writer should never pander to vocal minority, they should write what makes sense in the moment, and Psylocke commenting on one of the similarities between mother and daughter makes perfect sense.

Oh I get that - I just don't think Psylocke or M would defer to someone else to sense emotions - definitely not Betsy anyway. Maybe if it was something more complicated, like those things have weird alien minds Rachel is better at deciphering?

I did wonder whether Wilson simply forgot Monet had psionic powers, especially when she uses terms like nanu-nanu and mind beams as if telepathy is incomprehensible to her, but after re-reading the page I came to the decision that Monet just couldn't pick anything up because they're barely sentient, and she so asks Rachel as the strongest telepath.

You know it's kinda strange that Storm would doubt the existence of the afterlife when Nightcrawler is a testament to its existence. Hell she was one of the X-Men who was pulled into the world of the afterlife by the bamfs to help Kurt.

Well if there is any continuity you are allowed to ignore, it is the story where Nightcrawler - a devout Christian - doesn't even enter heaven or try to meet God, and just mopes around looking at the clouds instead, and is then ripped from paradise without seemingly being bothered in the slightest.

[Vaishakh]

Could you explain what is so wrong with Rachel being compared to her mother in this instance? I haven't read a great many Rachel stories over the years, so perhaps there is some huge elephant in the room I am missing, but Jean is her mother (alternative universe or otherwise); of course there are similarities. They look similar, they have the same abilities, of course she probably uses her telepathy in the same way. And just because there are similarities, that doesn't make them the same character. No one would ever call Wolverine and X-23 the same character, despite having the same powers, claws and sharing a few personality quirks.

Your objection seems to be that some fans see her has an ersatz Jean. A good writer should never pander to vocal minority, they should write what makes sense in the moment, and Psylocke commenting on one of the similarities between mother and daughter makes perfect sense.

Rachel being compared to Jean only gives more fuel to feeling that Rachel is a stand-in for Jean(which is true but I think writers should at least try to hide it).

[Sardorim]

A few moments of clunky dialogue this issue aside (the 'pain is important' moment stood out in particular - as if Betsy wouldn't know - Rachel sounded like she was in a classroom, not in the middle of a battle) I really enjoyed the efforts to make each character feel unique and have their own voice.



Could you explain what is so wrong with Rachel being compared to her mother in this instance? I haven't read a great many Rachel stories over the years, so perhaps there is some huge elephant in the room I am missing, but Jean is her mother (alternative universe or otherwise); of course there are similarities. They look similar, they have the same abilities, of course she probably uses her telepathy in the same way. And just because there are similarities, that doesn't make them the same character. No one would ever call Wolverine and X-23 the same character, despite having the same powers, claws and sharing a few personality quirks.

Your objection seems to be that some fans see her has an ersatz Jean. A good writer should never pander to vocal minority, they should write what makes sense in the moment, and Psylocke commenting on one of the similarities between mother and daughter makes perfect sense.



I did wonder whether Wilson simply forgot Monet had psionic powers, especially when she uses terms like nanu-nanu and mind beams as if telepathy is incomprehensible to her, but after re-reading the page I came to the decision that Monet just couldn't pick anything up because they're barely sentient, and she so asks Rachel as the strongest telepath.



Well if there is any continuity you are allowed to ignore, it is the story where Nightcrawler - a devout Christian - doesn't even enter heaven or try to meet God, and just mopes around looking at the clouds instead, and is then ripped from paradise without seemingly being bothered in the slightest.

Because those that don't follow the comics have wrongly stated that Rachel = Jean in the past. It was very bad for the longest time and it took me months to change that mindset for games like Marvel Heroes as the fanbase was reluctant to accept that Rachel and Jean were very much different and that Rachel did have a fanbase after all. Eventually I persuaded most to this fact and showed off how many costumes Rachel has so Gaz clearly profits more from making Rachel her own character (as she should be) than incorrectly making her a Jean costume whose nothing like her.

No surprise the same crew that was adamant that Rachel = Jean also wanted Carnage to be a Venom costume because Symbiote = Symbiote in their eyes. How wrong they are...

And yes, that same crowd also said X-23 = Wolverine despite a mountain of evidence, like with Rachel and Carnage, that was against that mindset. Luckily logic prevailed there as X-23 was made her own character but it a disturbing trend that so many that are ignorant to characters, and refuse to use google to gain knowledge about them, try and brush them off because "They weren't in a Movie" or "I think they're the same because of their powers and I'll ignore all evidence that goes against me as I don't like that character who I refuse to get to know".

The similarities between them end at TP/TK/Red Hair. Beyond that they're very different and there's no way they approach TP/TK the same way as nothing ever supported that they did while everything supports them being very much different in power use and approach.

Rachel being compared to Jean only gives more fuel to feeling that Rachel is a stand-in for Jean(which is true but I think writers should at least try to hide it).

It was never true. Rachel and Jean HAVE existed at the same time and Rachel existing hasn't stopped Tean from existing at the same time. Rachel has her own story, origin, and uses her powers quite differently and approaches combat far differently from Jean/Tean as well as being much more aggressive/hot-headed which leaks into how she fights. Not to mention that Rachel is Phoenix-Free for years and Jean never was a Hound.

[shgs]

Rachel has her own story, origin, and uses her powers quite differently and approaches combat far differently from Jean/Tean as well as being much more aggressive/hot-headed which leaks into how she fights. Not to mention that Rachel is Phoenix-Free for years and Jean never was a Hound.

And part of her story and origin is the fact that she is the daughter of Jean Grey. Ignoring that fact, or attempting to hide it is just doing her character a disservice. If anything never mentioning her in the same breath as Jean or not establishing they are related is only going to encourage people who don't know anything about her to think she is Jean 2.0 or just, in fact, Jean.

[Vaishakh]

And part of her story and origin is the fact that she is the daughter of Jean Grey. Ignoring that fact, or attempting to hide it is just doing her character a disservice. If anything never mentioning her in the same breath as Jean or not establishing they are related is only going to encourage people who don't know anything about her to think she is Jean 2.0 or just, in fact, Jean.

She is also daughter of Cyclops and sister of Cable but that is almost never mentioned(I dont think she and Cable have been in same page for over a decade) . I never said that writers should attempt to hide their relationship. I think it'd be better to mention differences between them instead of similarities but that is never done so it is like writers themselves are using Rachel as Jean 2.0 instead of her own character(or a Jean Grey stand-in).

[Tunasammiches]

She is also daughter of Cyclops and sister of Cable but that is almost never mentioned(I dont think she and Cable have been in same page for over a decade) . I never said that writers should attempt to hide their relationship. I think it'd be better to mention differences between them instead of similarities but that is never done so it is like writers themselves are using Rachel as Jean 2.0 instead of her own character(or a Jean Grey stand-in).

It's irritating how Ray and Nate haven't shared page time since his original series. There was so much sibling camaraderie on his whole run. I didn't know the extent of people's ignorance to Ray wrt Marvel Heroes. But I'm not surprised since we barely see her in anything outside of comics. I was happy to see her appear in the X-Men: BOTA app as a playable character, as well as see her face off against Madelyn and several nods to her continuity. (aka stories that SHOULD be told about her)

In this instance, Wilson's remark about Jean seemed to read like Psylocke is being thoughtful about Ray's power similarities to Jean, and alludes to it affectionately, as she seems very affectionate for both characters canonically-speaking.

[shgs]

She is also daughter of Cyclops and sister of Cable but that is almost never mentioned(I dont think she and Cable have been in same page for over a decade) . I never said that writers should attempt to hide their relationship. I think it'd be better to mention differences between them instead of similarities but that is never done so it is like writers themselves are using Rachel as Jean 2.0 instead of her own character(or a Jean Grey stand-in).

While I can see why you have a wider issue with how Rachel is portrayed, I think this is a case where it feels completely natural for Psylocke to comment on a similarity, and as Tunasammiches says above, it feels very affectionate. Also the reason why Rachel and Cyclops/Cable haven't been interacting recently is obviously because they are off doing their own things, and whilst writers could obviously do more to explore her feelings towards them and what they are currently up to without them appearing, you can't criticise G. Willow Wilson for what other writers have failed to do.

[Beezzi]

It's irritating how Ray and Nate haven't shared page time since his original series. There was so much sibling camaraderie on his whole run. I didn't know the extent of people's ignorance to Ray wrt Marvel Heroes. But I'm not surprised since we barely see her in anything outside of comics. I was happy to see her appear in the X-Men: BOTA app as a playable character, as well as see her face off against Madelyn and several nods to her continuity. (aka stories that SHOULD be told about her)

In this instance, Wilson's remark about Jean seemed to read like Psylocke is being thoughtful about Ray's power similarities to Jean, and alludes to it affectionately, as she seems very affectionate for both characters canonically-speaking.

This was my read of the scene...I got that Psylocke was proud of the person she'd become...

[Sardorim]

And part of her story and origin is the fact that she is the daughter of Jean Grey. Ignoring that fact, or attempting to hide it is just doing her character a disservice. If anything never mentioning her in the same breath as Jean or not establishing they are related is only going to encourage people who don't know anything about her to think she is Jean 2.0 or just, in fact, Jean.

That doesn't define her as a character though. It's like saying Cyclops is defined entirely because Corsair is his father.

No one's ignoring it, the fact is that she's FAR more than that and anyone that says Jean = Rachel knows nothing about either character.

Furthermore Rachel established years ago that she's her own woman, is vastly different, and isn't her mother's replacement.

Notice how Jean being her mother is brought up way more than it should yet it's ignored that Corsair is her grandfather, Cyclops is her father, Cable and Nate are her alternate siblings, Hope is her adopted niece, and ect.

It's always Rachel and Jean and THAT is what spreads the false belief that they're the same when they are nothing alike besides similar powers (Rachel has her own unique powers that Jean lacks, they use them differently and different training) and red hair (Rachel wears her hair differently).

It's irritating how Ray and Nate haven't shared page time since his original series. There was so much sibling camaraderie on his whole run. I didn't know the extent of people's ignorance to Ray wrt Marvel Heroes. But I'm not surprised since we barely see her in anything outside of comics. I was happy to see her appear in the X-Men: BOTA app as a playable character, as well as see her face off against Madelyn and several nods to her continuity. (aka stories that SHOULD be told about her)

In this instance, Wilson's remark about Jean seemed to read like Psylocke is being thoughtful about Ray's power similarities to Jean, and alludes to it affectionately, as she seems very affectionate for both characters canonically-speaking.

Their ignorance was quite bad (Heck many still thought she was in Space and a Phoenix Host) but I'm positive I changed many minds over there as those against Rachel soon developed into a hateful minority that refused to meet any rebuttal and resorted to personal attacks which got the topic closed as the mods refused to ban them, because they liked their money, so they punished Rachel fans instead. It was a dark and shameful day when they appeased the haters but the message was clear and the haters eventually left the game while Rachel's acceptance as a future playable remained.

I would hope Psylocke at least likes Rachel as she did agree to watch over Rachel and be there for her after End of Greys.

[OmegaPower]

Amazing issue. Wasn't really expecting something quite this good. That writing was what stood out the most for me. I, for once, actually liked they Psylocke mentioned Jean. Its her mother after all and I think it's bad how some writers like Bendis forget these things.

[shgs]

That doesn't define her as a character though. It's like saying Cyclops is defined entirely because Corsair is his father.

No one's ignoring it, the fact is that she's FAR more than that and anyone that says Jean = Rachel knows nothing about either character.

Furthermore Rachel established years ago that she's her own woman, is vastly different, and isn't her mother's replacement.

Well sure, but neither I nor G Willow Wilson have implied that being Jean's daughter is what defines Rachel.

Notice how Jean being her mother is brought up way more than it should yet it's ignored that Corsair is her grandfather, Cyclops is her father, Cable and Nate are her alternate siblings, Hope is her adopted niece, and ect.

It's always Rachel and Jean and THAT is what spreads the false belief that they're the same when they are nothing alike besides similar powers (Rachel has her own unique powers that Jean lacks, they use them differently and different training) and red hair (Rachel wears her hair differently).

I thing the main difference between us here is that I am judging the moment based on its context within this story, whereas you are looking at it from a much wider perspective of (what you perceive to be) years of overemphasis on her connection between her and Jean, both in writing and by certain fans. Given that this is G Willow Wilson's first ever X-Men story (right?), you can hardly lay the blame for this overemphasis at her feet. It felt, to me at least, a perfectly natural comparison to make in the moment and there weren't really any moments where a similar reference to any other family members might have been made.

Two other minor points: 1) This is a book about female X-Men, so you can see why Wilson might want to explore Rachel's relationship with her mother but not her grandfather, father or brothers in this case; 2) I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that across all fiction more emphasis tends to be placed on same sex parent/child relationships than different sex parent/child relationships, which probably contributes in part to the comparative lack of stories exploring Rachel and Cyclop's relationship.