PREVIEW: New Avengers #31

[jackolover]

There were plenty of public superhumans during WWII, and then even between then and the 'modern' heroic era starting with the FF, there were some superheroics by the likes of the First Line. Just not as much of it as there has been since the era of the FF and Spider-Man and Avengers and X-Men began.

But you can see the difference between the WW11 and mid 50's super heroes and the Modern Age super heroes being so incessant and relating to the Public? Before that, the public were basically on their own in the Monster Age, with the previous super heroes you mentioned disappearing. I'm not familiar with the First Line, so were they written about in the Silver Age or before, or, were they retconned into the past later?

The effect of super heroes in the Sliver Age was that there was no physical war about then, (maybe a Cold War), so the super heroes had to justify their existence, and, begin to make the public dependant on them. What I saw was this vacuum of super heroes before the Silver Age, then they emerged in such proliferation as to take over the world, with their selfless acts. The future shock to the Earth 616 was shuddering, but didn't get to exhaustion till Civil War. The emergence of the Silver Age SH's was terrifying as well as exhilarating, because even though they were monsters, they were familiar, because they came out of human society. The SH's forged a new name for itself in the future world post-WW11. It was a defining event in the MU because now SH's could act out in the open instead of just be secret service personnel. They were holiday super heroes. SH's who didn't have a world war to define them, but a "civic" war against the super villains, who also defined the SH's.

[jackolover]

I think Strange will get a fairly good showing, because he is going in with a powerful army. I think the advent of Strange, whatever Doom and Molecule Man are working on, Thor's team, along with all the other little puzzle pieces Hickman has laid out are all going to converge on Rabum Alal and the Ivory Kings and the cataclysm the ensures will create the Battleworld in some manner.

But whatever Rabum Alal may be, it was the Living Tribunal who got jobbed, IMO. He is basically just below TOAA, and I think there should have been a lot more concern in the multiverse with him being missing. Considering all the heavy hitters he/she/it must keep in check you would think a whole lot of crap must be going down elsewhere.

The fact that Living Tribunal was so recently found lying on the Moon inert, tells me the Incursions started then, fairly recently, for Rabum Alal to even start the Incursions. If the Tribunal had been in place, none of this would be happening, because he fights any of the Incursion imbalance from happening. Ever since the inert LT 's appearance, we can expect nothing but chaos has been happening since. Practically anything after HICKMAN started writing his Avengers story, has been done outside the rules the MU, that it had been operating with, previously. It may as well have not been the Earth 616.

[jphamlore]

From a purely commercial perspective, I am now convinced Marvel would not accept for Rabum Alal anyone who isn't one of the following: Ultron, the original Beyonder, or Thanos. Because of the timing of when the new Secret Wars will start, I believe, whether it makes sense nor not, some form of Ultron will be shoe-horned into being Rabum Alal or at least the force that controls Battleworld. And if it isn't Ultron, it will be the original Beyonder.

As has been argued on another thread, there are enough hints even in Hickman's work that Ultron could have hacked the Multiverse from alpha to omega.

[vitruvian]

I know, my head aches because I'm too old and can't change my conceptual outlook.

So, Peter and Johnny are in their mid to late sixties in your conceptual outlook? Or is it still the 70s or 80s?

[TresDias]

The funny thing is that the timeline from the recent "All-New X-Men" annual starring Eva Bell placed the Fantastic Four's first meeting with Galactus in 1966.

[somebody]

Depending on who Rabum Alal is and his/her true intent, maybe there won't be a fight with Dr Strange. One thing I think has been underplayed in all this incursion business is the fact that Strange basically admitted to being a mass murderer. How many different Earths did he and the black priests destroy up the the point he ran into Thor and crew? Many readers were taken aback when Ultimate Reed admitted to destroying over 60 different Earths, but what if Strange and the priests have destroyed even more?

The biggest difference with Dr. Strange and the Reed is that the Black Priests are (now) acting as surgeons, to cut out "cancerous" universes to try to save the multiversal structure, whereas I think Ult. Reed is just killing worlds for self-preservation and fun.

[Reviresco]

Depending on who Rabum Alal is and his/her true intent, maybe there won't be a fight with Dr Strange. One thing I think has been underplayed in all this incursion business is the fact that Strange basically admitted to being a mass murderer. How many different Earths did he and the black priests destroy up the the point he ran into Thor and crew? Many readers were taken aback when Ultimate Reed admitted to destroying over 60 different Earths, but what if Strange and the priests have destroyed even more?

Strange isn't getting the same crap, because he didn't do anything to Wakanda, and Hickman isn't going out of his way to paint Strange as a villain, like he is doing with Namor and like he's done with Ultimate Reed. Chances are the Black Priests have destroyed more worlds, especially since they were doing so before Strange joined them.

The biggest difference with Dr. Strange and the Reed is that the Black Priests are (now) acting as surgeons, to cut out "cancerous" universes to try to save the multiversal structure, whereas I think Ult. Reed is just killing worlds for self-preservation and fun.

Where did you get the idea that Ultimate Reed was destroying worlds for fun?

So, you think Dr. Strange is only destroying Earth's that 'deserve' it? That's got to be the biggest act of hubris / delusions of godhood of any of the Illmuniati. Strange is doing nothing different from Namor and the Cabal or the Ultimate Reed, as far as 'self preservation.' Though I don't see it as self-preservation at all.

[Cloudman]

The biggest difference with Dr. Strange and the Reed is that the Black Priests are (now) acting as surgeons, to cut out "cancerous" universes to try to save the multiversal structure, whereas I think Ult. Reed is just killing worlds for self-preservation and fun.

I don't see how we can think of Ult Reed's actions as any different to the Illuminati's or Strange's. Just because he apparently feels less guilty about destroying universes doesn't mean he sees it as fun.

[vitruvian]

But you can see the difference between the WW11 and mid 50's super heroes and the Modern Age super heroes being so incessant and relating to the Public? Before that, the public were basically on their own in the Monster Age, with the previous super heroes you mentioned disappearing.

While you're right about superheroes (the Agents of Atlas/50s Avengers notwithstanding) being quite a bit less common in between, it is simply not the case that the WWII era superheroes were any less public than those of the modern era. Not only were they quite visible to soldiers in theatre, we're talking plenty of costumed types running around in NYC, and massive public spectacles like Namor and the original Human Torch battling in the sky over Manhattan. So, no, I don't see the difference, because it only exists in terms of how long the period of public activity lasted.

I'm not familiar with the First Line, so were they written about in the Silver Age or before, or, were they retconned into the past later?

Retconned in, but no more so than the formation of the Invaders as a formal team.

The effect of super heroes in the Sliver Age was that there was no physical war about then, (maybe a Cold War), so the super heroes had to justify their existence, and, begin to make the public dependant on them. What I saw was this vacuum of super heroes before the Silver Age, then they emerged in such proliferation as to take over the world, with their selfless acts. The future shock to the Earth 616 was shuddering, but didn't get to exhaustion till Civil War. The emergence of the Silver Age SH's was terrifying as well as exhilarating, because even though they were monsters, they were familiar, because they came out of human society. The SH's forged a new name for itself in the future world post-WW11. It was a defining event in the MU because now SH's could act out in the open instead of just be secret service personnel. They were holiday super heroes. SH's who didn't have a world war to define them, but a "civic" war against the super villains, who also defined the SH's.

Except it's not actually the case that there was no actual war during the modern era of superheroes prior to Civil War, whether you go by the original publishing chronology or the revised chronology we must assume for purposes of the sliding timeline. In the former case, you've got the Vietnam War smack dab in the middle of the Silver Age/beginning of the Bronze Age, and certainly well before the time of Civil War; in the latter case, going with a timeline of no more than 13-14 years from the FF's rocket flight to present, you've got war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Further, the public appearances by superheroes in both cases started before the relevant wars (or at least America's entry into the war in WWII, with Human Torch and Namor and several others), in neither case were all or even the majority of superheroes either soldiers or secret agents (plenty of superheroes on the home front in WWII), and in both case activity persisted after the wars ended or wound down.

As for 'making society dependent on them', how do you mean? The FF's first major mission was against the Mole Man, whose crusade against the surface world surely would have happened with or without their presence, and may not have been averted (or if averted, at greater cost and length) without them. The vast majority of threats that superheroes stopped over the following years were likewise completely independent of their existence, and could have been disastrous without their presence, but neither did they stop governments from developing their own means to attempt to deal with such threats in the form of SHIELD and similar organizations.

[vitruvian]

The funny thing is that the timeline from the recent "All-New X-Men" annual starring Eva Bell placed the Fantastic Four's first meeting with Galactus in 1966.

Oh, I know. So maybe Johnny and Peter just have really good plastic surgeons?

[vitruvian]

From a purely commercial perspective, I am now convinced Marvel would not accept for Rabum Alal anyone who isn't one of the following: Ultron, the original Beyonder, or Thanos. Because of the timing of when the new Secret Wars will start, I believe, whether it makes sense nor not, some form of Ultron will be shoe-horned into being Rabum Alal or at least the force that controls Battleworld. And if it isn't Ultron, it will be the original Beyonder.

As has been argued on another thread, there are enough hints even in Hickman's work that Ultron could have hacked the Multiverse from alpha to omega.

All people we've seen before.

[vitruvian]

The fact that Living Tribunal was so recently found lying on the Moon inert, tells me the Incursions started then, fairly recently, for Rabum Alal to even start the Incursions. If the Tribunal had been in place, none of this would be happening, because he fights any of the Incursion imbalance from happening. Ever since the inert LT 's appearance, we can expect nothing but chaos has been happening since. Practically anything after HICKMAN started writing his Avengers story, has been done outside the rules the MU, that it had been operating with, previously. It may as well have not been the Earth 616.

The fact that Black Swan and others in the multiverse have been dealing with them for a good while, long enough for Black Swan to grow up from girlhood, tells you no, that's not the case.

[jphamlore]

Meanwhile has there been any preview interior art for New Avengers #30, just the cover so far? Isn't it going to be released next week?

[TresDias]

Meanwhile has there been any preview interior art for New Avengers #30, just the cover so far? Isn't it going to be released next week?

No, yes and yes.

All people we've seen before.

Honestly, I think there's no way Hickman is planning to introduce a character we've never heard of before as the "surprise" big bad. There wouldn't be all this mystery about Rabum Alal's identity were that the case.

It's either someone we know and Hickman's comment will be technically true on a technicality (alternate version or new form) or there is no Great Destroyer and it's just the name for the collective mess heroes and villains across the multiverse have made by mucking with spacetime.

[vitruvian]

No, yes and yes.


Honestly, I think there's no way Hickman is planning to introduce a character we've never heard of before as the "surprise" big bad. There wouldn't be all this mystery about Rabum Alal's identity were that the case.

It's either someone we know and Hickman's comment will be technically true on a technicality (alternate version or new form) or there is no Great Destroyer and it's just the name for the collective mess heroes and villains across the multiverse have made by mucking with spacetime.

I can see the 'true on a technicality' thing, to be sure, but that still requires that the character be an alternate version or fairly significantly transformed, which didn't seem to be the case with any of the suggestions made.

And if it's a collective mess, then it would have to be approximately 99% Kang/Immortus/Scarlet Centurion's fault, by virtue of the sheer proportion of time travel shenanigans attributable to that dude and his alternates. Sue, Logan, Hank McCoy, Eva, even Reed and Victor and Franklin and Valeria, all their time travel escapades put together are a drop in the bucket compared to all the stuff that the various versions of the Nathaniel Richards from the future has been up to....