Kate Kane: Batwoman Appreciation 2018

[Caivu]

Eh. I think the "too many other things" aren't really that many, obviously.

Well, that's wrong, quite frankly. She's killed multiple times. She's okay with it if need be. There's nothing that contradicts that, anywhere.

So clearly I'm just interpreting Kate differently - probably the same reason I jar so much against Bennett's "Kate is so flawed" approach. To me, Batwoman is the pure hero who says, "I'm always on Batman rules." The reason she is so let down by her dad's betrayal is because her standards are so high.

Not so much "differently" as "incomplete". I don't think Kate is a character that allows for a lot of room for interpretation, since she's been so consistently written. There's no option to pick and choose with her the way there is with Batman.

Kate does have high standards, you're right, but that's only one part of why Jacob's actions hurt her so much. And while I don't think Bennett is right about the way she thinks of Kate as A Mess (even though that doesn't really come through in the series), she's not wrong that Kate some pretty big flaws. She's absolutely not pure, and I'm honestly confused how you can think that.

She's contradictory, deliberately so. One examole: She has this high level of personal discipline, but also loves going out partying and spending the night with random women. That's not an act the way it would be with Bruce.

Eh. I think it's fairly standard practice to retcon things that weren't super well received unless you have a Morrison plan for it. One may not like it, but it's still happening all the time when you have so many writers.

Maybe, but not in this case. She's been pretty immune to removal-style retcons so far, and I want it to stay that way.

[millernumber1]

Well, that's wrong, quite frankly. She's killed multiple times. She's okay with it if need be. There's nothing that contradicts that, anywhere.

Not so much "differently" as "incomplete". I don't think Kate is a character that allows for a lot of room for interpretation, since she's been so consistently written. There's no option to pick and choose with her the way there is with Batman.

Kate does have high standards, you're right, but that's only one part of why Jacob's actions hurt her so much. And while I don't think Bennett is right about the way she thinks of Kate as A Mess (even though that doesn't really come through in the series), she's not wrong that Kate some pretty big flaws. She's absolutely not pure, and I'm honestly confused how you can think that.

She's contradictory, deliberately so. One examole: She has this high level of personal discipline, but also loves going out partying and spending the night with random women. That's not an act the way it would be with Bruce.

Maybe, but not in this case. She's been pretty immune to removal-style retcons so far, and I want it to stay that way.

So far, I would say you have one straightforward killing - Mannheim, one monster (who I really don't think is even a question), and something that happened at the end of a very murky arc that hasn't been mentioned again and has never had any consequences for Kate's characterization (and if I were forced to come up with an answer, I'd say "fantasy dimension, probably not truly sentient because created by sorceress" or something similar). Interestingly, the one kill I'd really give you, Mannheim, is never brought up as something Kate did wrong, by anyone - though it was while Bruce and his closest allies were gone, so maybe there was a sense of "no Batman, different rules" - but I still think that if "Kate is willing to kill" were a thing, you would have seen a lot more characterization like Helena Bertinelli got pre-Flashpoint. It's enough of a distinctive that I think someone would really have brought it up, since Huntress was known for two things (for non-fans) - she's the one Gotham vigilante who kills, and she's got the belly window.

The biggest point in your favor, I would say, is that Kate never goes on about the no-kill rule. And for a Bat to not go on about it is significant.

But you seem to be talking about Kate like she had a comparable body count to Jason "duffel bag full of heads" Todd pre-Flashpoint. To me, Kate is the woman who wanted so badly to help others, to serve her country, to be true to herself, that when she was told she couldn't do that, she was incredibly depressed and self destructive. And who sees the Bat not as a self-aggrandizement, or vengeance, but as a way to serve.

I'm not convinced that Kate actually loves partying and the hookup lifestyle. That, to me, reads as part of her self-destruction when she was unfairly kicked out of the army. We've seen her in a bar with Renee in Rebirth Tec, but she wasn't dancing or partying, but instead was being pretty meditative.

EDIT: Did a quick google, and apparently Kate didn't even necessarily kill Bruno, since he was seen after 52. Now, that doesn't mean Kate didn't kill him and he came back with some kind of Religion of Crime mumbo jumbo, but that seems like an interesting bit of evidence, and that would also explain why no one ever brought up Kate killing him later.

MOAR EDIT: Further googling and checking of reviews reveals no discussion of Kate killing. TVTropes mentions that she doesn't seem to have an aversion to killing, but it doesn't record any specific kills. Again, I know this is arguing from silence, but I think considering just how much crap Huntress got for being willing to kill (even though her actual recorded kills were pretty low, as far as I can tell), I really think that if DC intended for Kate to be another "killer vigilante" who "bucks the Bat's rules," it would have been something that was really obvious.

[Caivu]

The biggest point in your favor, I would say, is that Kate never goes on about the no-kill rule. And for a Bat to not go on about it is significant.

But you seem to be talking about Kate like she had a comparable body count to Jason "duffel bag full of heads" Todd pre-Flashpoint.

If so, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm just saying that she is perfectly okay with killing if needed, and has demonstrated that multiple times. She has no moral qualms about it in and of itself. Why would she? She was originally going to be a soldier, after all.

To me, Kate is the woman who wanted so badly to help others, to serve her country, to be true to herself, that when she was told she couldn't do that, she was incredibly depressed and self destructive. And who sees the Bat not as a self-aggrandizement, or vengeance, but as a way to serve.

You're correct about that. But that's not all she is.

I'm not convinced that Kate actually loves partying and the hookup lifestyle. That, to me, reads as part of her self-destruction when she was unfairly kicked out of the army. We've seen her in a bar with Renee in Rebirth Tec, but she wasn't dancing or partying, but instead was being pretty meditative.

She was meditative because she had just embarked on a new venture in her life and was nervous. And there's a few panels that will help address your first point that I need to add.

Edit: this isn't the best one, but...

Screenshot_20171128-205729.jpg

I know that's past tense there. The better one I'm thinking of is in the first #0 issue, where Bruce follows her to a club and basically says "she's able to cut loose and be free in a way I just can't."

Again, I know this is arguing from silence, but I think considering just how much crap Huntress got for being willing to kill (even though her actual recorded kills were pretty low, as far as I can tell), I really think that if DC intended for Kate to be another "killer vigilante" who "bucks the Bat's rules," it would have been something that was really obvious.

But that's not the intent. She's okay with killing, but she mostly refrains from it because she respects the symbol. That differentiates her from both Batman and Huntress. Kate's not there to buck the rules just for kicks; quite the opposite.

My biggest problem with all this is that you're basically trying to strip her of many of her major characteristics, in spite of the evidence... and thus making her waaay too similar to Batman, which is explicitly against a key point of her character.

[millernumber1]

If so, that's not what I'm meaning. I'm just saying that she is perfectly okay with killing if needed, and has demonstrated that multiple times. She has no moral qualms about it in and of itself. Why would she? She was originally going to be a soldier, after all.

The better one I'm thinking of is in the first #0 issue, where Bruce folloqs her to a club and basically says "she's able to cut loose and be free in a way I just can't."

But that's not the intent. She's okay with killing, but she mostly refrains from it because she respects the symbol. That differentiates her from both Batman and Huntress.

I think there's a big difference - that Kate knows - between serving as a soldier who is asked to kill in combat, and volunteering as a vigilante protector in a civilian city in your homeland. It's one of the big reasons why Kate was so against the Colony's actions in Gotham, after all.

You have a point on the #0 issue, though I think it's important that it's not followed up in very many meaningful ways. Also, my own thought there is "being less repressed and emotionally damaged than Batman isn't a bad thing."

I don't know how much further we can get in this discussion, barring actually posting the specific kills and taking a look at the circumstances in detail, but I appreciate the back and forth.

[Caivu]

I don't know how much further we can get in this discussion, barring actually posting the specific kills and taking a look at the circumstances in detail, but I appreciate the back and forth.

That's not really the point, though. At least not that I'm making. I'm just saying she's willing to kill if necessary but refrains from it on the whole. She's not at the extreme of either Batman or Huntress in that regard.

[Caivu]

Screenshot_20171129-143405.jpg

Seeing this sort of thing always makes me happy.

[Caivu]

Unexpected, but Kate was in the New Talent Showcase today! She was one of the allies that Dick was mentally "hearing" give him advice and help, and one of his reinforcements at the end. Damian was as well, so this is yet another instance of Kate and Damian being in the same scene and not speaking to each other. I wish this one wasn't so questionably canon, because it was cool to see Dick have such explicit admiration for her.

The Red Hood/Signal story was more clearly canon, and implies that the Knights and Outlaws are on okay terms now, and that Kate and Selina might be as well.

[CPSparkles]

Family

[Caivu]

Exactly. That was such a pleasant surprise.

[CPSparkles]

I wasn't expecting it either. It wasn't advertised or anything.
Loved the theme

[Caivu]

The voting game is down to two, and Kate's in trouble! :0

Help her out if you want.

http://community.comicbookresources....dition!/page87

[Man-Thing]

pitching in where I can!

[Caivu]

pitching in where I can!

Much appreciated!

[Caivu]

By Ozzie Coria:

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By Dan Asfour:

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[Caivu]

Delayed again:

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