How Did "Armageddon 2001" "Break" Giffen & DeMatteis' "Justice League"?

[Lee Stone]

I think you are under the mistaken impression that YJ was actually influential or well liked. The fact that it was cancelled after two seasons says it all.

Plus Morrison's run on Justice League is generally one of the better selling runs and tpbs.

I would guess that YJ had more viewers than JLA had readers.

I won't knock Morrison's JLA because I love his work but DC lost a possible key villain by replacing her with the alien.
The whole concept of Bialya and Queen Bee could very well be used much like Latveria and Dr. Doom. Under the right creator, of course.
She just had so much potential to be more than just a JLI villain.
Matter of fact, I could see the Bialya Queen Bee as a Batman villain.

[MykeHavoc]

I think you are under the mistaken impression that YJ was actually influential or well liked. The fact that it was cancelled after two seasons says it all.

Plus Morrison's run on Justice League is generally one of the better selling runs and tpbs.

I think you're mistaken that your wildly poor opinion somehow qualifies as fact. Basically the reverse of everything you said is true.

[Claude]

I think you're mistaken that your wildly poor opinion somehow qualifies as fact. Basically the reverse of everything you said is true.

Which bit? Do you mean that Morrison's run on Justice League isn't generally one of the better-selling runs and tpbs? Or that Young Justice wasn't cancelled after two series?

Unless, of course, you mean that YJ was influential. Which it wasn't.

Pretty good, for the most part, but the biggest influence it had on comics was when Lobdell introduced Artemis and then killed her off.

[MykeHavoc]

Its funny that you left out the one thing that is most obvious: that is was well liked, which it is. The amount of fan pages and signature lists to save the show is staggering.

[Claude]

Its funny that you left out the one thing that is most obvious: that is was well liked, which it is. The amount of fan pages and signature lists to save the show is staggering.

So, for the most part, Bruce Wayne's "wildly poor opinion" was factually accurate? You just liked it more than him? Cool. I just figured you meant more than one thing when you said that "basically the reverse of everything" he said was true.

And any and every show gets fanpages and petitions, I wouldn't read too much into it. Throughout the second series alone, reaction in the self-selecting Pro Superhero Comics-Reading corners of the internet was mixed. And the kids in the target demos it mostly passed by.

[colonyofcells]

Post convergence, there's probably lots of room for a funny JLI and also Young Justice as the JL academy. Hopefully, dc will end micromanagement and get rid of crossovers for good. With self contained stories, can have an event title where Captain Atom becomes a villain and this can be treated as an elseworlds story. JLI with its independent continuity, can continue to use Captain Atom as a hero.

[Lee Stone]

Of course... it could just be that hardly any comic reaches an audience the size of any high profile tv show.
And the cartoon wasn't cancelled because it wasn't watched.
It was cancelled because the poorly made toys didn't sell.

And while JLA will always be popular in the comics community, people in the real world are more likely to come across a Young Justice cartoon or DVD.

[ultradav]

This was such a masterful crossover, despite all of the BS they had to sift through. Armageddon 2001 was really such a mess in its ending -- it screwed with Breakdowns and destroyed Hawk & Dove for many, many years. And it didn't make sense. However, the Armageddon 2001 annuals were very good, mostly.

[FanboyStranger]

Post convergence is allowing some comedy so maybe Giffen will be doing more comedy titles.

See, this is kinda the perception problem. JLI wasn't really a comedy title. It was funny, to be sure, but it was also a magnificiently plotted superhero book. The character interactions were funny, often hilarious, but the overall book came from a serious superhero base. (Yes, I was laughing as I wrote that. The genre does not permit a true serious base. You can have serious themes, but all superhero books are inherently ridiculous. Which is a good thing!) It was playing with the genre, but since it was actually amusing, it doesn't get the same critical evaluation as a DKR or Watchmen. (But then again, neither does American Flagg!, which was a major inspiration for both works on both on a thematic and craft level, nor Marshall Law, which made all other deconstructions of the superhero genre superfluous and had a damn good time doing so.) I say JLI is very much part of that movement.

I would also argue that there's a lot more to learn from Giffen's JLI than there is from Kingdom Come, which was the third title that Lee mentioned that "serious" fans worship. KC is undoubtedly a great story told by a creative team at the peak of its power, but there's nothing innovative there. There's no radical attempt at storytelling or a signature stylistic development. It's nothing new. It's great-- and probably a better story than JLI-- but it's not as ambitious as far as craft. (Yes, Ross is a fantastic illustrator. No denying that. However, even though painted work was relatively novel for the N American market at the time, his work is very traditional. He's not Sienkiewicz reinventing the wheel on every page, Bisley with his ridiculous kineticism--something that's extremely rare in painted comics, Muth with his remarkable atmosphere, Vess with the overall beauty of his compostions, or Bolton with his sheer mastery of the form. He's the middle-of-the-road painter. Does it incredibly well-- and wows me every now and again-- but he's no vanguard figure.)

[Billy Batson]

KC is undoubtedly a great story told by a creative team at the peak of its power)

I wouldn't say that.

[FanboyStranger]

I wouldn't say that.

I really like it. It's certainly the best thing that Ross has done in comics. (Sorry, Eddie Campbell, but Uncle Sam isn't that great. It's very. very good, but no KC or Marvels.) Waid, we can quibble-- I'd go with Empire as his best personally-- but there's little doubt that this is one of his better efforts.

I have no problem citing KC as one of comics' greatest stories. I do have a problem with it being cited as something to aspire to from a craft standpoint.

[Billy Batson]

I really like it. It's certainly the best thing that Ross has done in comics. (Sorry, Eddie Campbell, but Uncle Sam isn't that great. It's very. very good, but no KC or Marvels.) Waid, we can quibble-- I'd go with Empire as his best personally-- but there's little doubt that this is one of his better efforts.

I have no problem citing KC as one of comics' greatest stories. I do have a problem with it being cited as something to aspire to from a craft standpoint.

It's just never worked for me personally. Ross' art doesn't suit the story, his art is always been too static for sequential storytelling. I agree with what you said about other painters in comics - Sienkiewicz, Biz, Muth and etc. handle their craft better.

Story wise it feels like it tries to say something but doesn't really manage to do so. Old men complaining about the youth.

[FanboyStranger]

It's just never worked for me personally. Ross' art doesn't suit the story, his art is always been too static for sequential storytelling. I agree with what you said about other painters in comics - Sienkiewicz, Biz, Muth and etc. handle their craft better.

Story wise it feels like it tries to say something but doesn't really manage to do so. Old men complaining about the youth.

Well, I think we're going to have to agree and disagree at the same time. Personally, I do think it's a great story, and I'm happy with Ross' art on it. I think his art suits the story, and it's impressive in its "realism".

I just don't think it's a monument for the medium, or anything that deserves close scrutiny as far as craft. I also don't think it's trying to make a point beyond itself, or if it is, it's a po-faced and unconvincing "what have you done to my superheroes/get off my lawn" argument that's easily ignored. (Which is pretty much what you said.) It's the best multi-camera sitcom in the era of Arrested Development and Curb Your Enthusiasm, to strain an analogy.

[Billy Batson]

I just don't think it's a monument for the medium, or anything that deserves close scrutiny as far as craft.

Agreed. I guess many readers who mostly read superhero comics consider it to be one due to the limited exposure of the medium.

[Lee Stone]

See, this is kinda the perception problem. JLI wasn't really a comedy title. It was funny, to be sure, but it was also a magnificiently plotted superhero book. The character interactions were funny, often hilarious, but the overall book came from a serious superhero base. (Yes, I was laughing as I wrote that. The genre does not permit a true serious base. You can have serious themes, but all superhero books are inherently ridiculous. Which is a good thing!) It was playing with the genre, but since it was actually amusing, it doesn't get the same critical evaluation as a DKR or Watchmen. (But then again, neither does American Flagg!, which was a major inspiration for both works on both on a thematic and craft level, nor Marshall Law, which made all other deconstructions of the superhero genre superfluous and had a damn good time doing so.) I say JLI is very much part of that movement.

I would also argue that there's a lot more to learn from Giffen's JLI than there is from Kingdom Come, which was the third title that Lee mentioned that "serious" fans worship. KC is undoubtedly a great story told by a creative team at the peak of its power, but there's nothing innovative there. There's no radical attempt at storytelling or a signature stylistic development. It's nothing new. It's great-- and probably a better story than JLI-- but it's not as ambitious as far as craft. (Yes, Ross is a fantastic illustrator. No denying that. However, even though painted work was relatively novel for the N American market at the time, his work is very traditional. He's not Sienkiewicz reinventing the wheel on every page, Bisley with his ridiculous kineticism--something that's extremely rare in painted comics, Muth with his remarkable atmosphere, Vess with the overall beauty of his compostions, or Bolton with his sheer mastery of the form. He's the middle-of-the-road painter. Does it incredibly well-- and wows me every now and again-- but he's no vanguard figure.)

I agree.
I think most of the people who considered JLI a comedy weren't actually reading it.
If anything, it was a character study- what would really happen if you mixed character A with character B?
How differently would character A and character B react to situation A?

In most comics, characters are conformed to the story. The writer needs to get from point A to point B and he/she guides the character towards it.
In JLI, the plot acted as a catalyst only and the characters made the story conform to them.

Shows and comics that have a similar feel to JLI would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Firefly, Moonlighting and Peter David's X-Factor (especially the early issues which included one issue consisting of psych evaluations of the team).