RACHEL GREY/SUMMERS, the Phoenix/Mother Askani Appreciation

[jarrod]

Yeah, I'm hoping for an ANAD X-Men type roster with Rachel in the place of Jean

It's such a no-brainer for the classic ANAD nostalgia Amazing is clearly pushing towards. If only we steal Banshee and Rogue back from Remender...

[Hariel0079]

It's such a no-brainer for the classic ANAD nostalgia Amazing is clearly pushing towards. If only we steal Banshee and Rogue back from Remender...

Let's hope it goes that direction

[Celestialbodies]

Yeah, I'm hoping for an ANAD X-Men type roster with Rachel in the place of Jean

This is exactly the type of stuff that keeps Rachel is the position she's in now, Rachel needs to find her own niche and team where she can function without being the Jean substitute why the hell she isn't on X-force with her brother is beyond me.

[Askani's Flame]

Yeah, I'm hoping for an ANAD X-Men type roster with Rachel in the place of Jean

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You mean this lineup? HELLS YES

This is exactly the type of stuff that keeps Rachel is the position she's in now, Rachel needs to find her own niche and team where she can function without being the Jean substitute why the hell she isn't on X-force with her brother is beyond me.

She did just fine in the lineup shown above. I'm not reading X-Force but if it's a kill squad she's not down with that, so it wouldn't be a fit for Rachel. If there was something similar to what the last X-Force was then yes. But then again, why does she need to be saddled with Cable to prop herself up?

Seriously she's one of the most underused and underappreciated X-characters right now.

[Celestialbodies]

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You mean this lineup? HELLS YES



She did just fine in the lineup shown above. I'm not reading X-Force but if it's a kill squad she's not down with that, so it wouldn't be a fit for Rachel. If there was something similar to what the last X-Force was then yes. But then again, why does she need to be saddled with Cable to prop herself up?

Seriously she's one of the most underused and underappreciated X-characters right now.

Because she was acting as the Jean replacement and she should be more than that, and that's a habit Claremont has as soon as Jean is unavailable he substitutes in Rachel when she needs her own stories to separate herself from Jean. She doesn't need to be saddled with Cable but the interactions between them could lead to writers having a different perception of Rachel versus being the character brought in to feel a void.

[jarrod]

Because she was acting as the Jean replacement and she should be more than that, and that's a habit Claremont has as soon as Jean is unavailable he substitutes in Rachel when she needs her own stories to separate herself from Jean. She doesn't need to be saddled with Cable but the interactions between them could lead to writers having a different perception of Rachel versus being the character brought in to feel a void.

She wasn't really a Jean stand in at all then. Her character arc, interactions and even the progression of her powers was entirely different. All she really had in common with Jean team wise was serving as team mentat, and in that regard Jean herself would be considered a stand in (for Xavier). In fact Rachel replaced Xavier directly chronologically even, not Jean.

[Celestialbodies]

She wasn't really a Jean stand in at all then. Her character arc, interactions and even the progression of her powers was entirely different. All she really had in common with Jean team wise was serving as team mentat, and in that regard Jean herself would be considered a stand in (for Xavier). In fact Rachel replaced Xavier directly chronologically even, not Jean.

She literally came in as the redheaded daughter of Jean Grey with TP/TK and an affinity for the PF and then went on to adopt the mantle, powers, and codename of both Marvel Girl and Phoenix. A stand in isn't meant to be the character just meant to fill a role or roles a previous character held the only reason she joined the X-men was because of Jean her entire time on the team was reflection on her life and connection to Jean Grey. It wasn't until she joined Excalibur that she had something that was her own and not connected to Jean or Scott. And Jean was never the stand in for Xavier especially because he was never on the team he was their leader, and the only things him and Jean shared in common was telepathy which she'd gained later on and even then she is still remember more for her telekinesis as it is the first power she started with that and Jean eventually surpassed Xavier and stepped out of his shadow as teacher and came into her own when you think of Xavier or Jean their not mutually exclusive but when you think of Rachel the first name pops into mind is Jean. It's made more obvious when she's written by Claremont I mean who else would come up with the story "End of Greys" a story assuredly meant for Jean. The question I think you have to ask is each time Rachel joined the X-men would she have still even been an option if Jean was around? It's the same with her presence in XX if Jean were still here who'd you think would make a better fit with those characters.

I say none of this to invalidate Rachel as a character all I'm saying is when she is put on teams or in places that would naturally be where Jean would be then the connection is always made to Jean the same isn't true of Cable and that's what she needs a separation from all things connected to Jean and find her own space to occupy it's one of the reasons she keeps getting left out of stories she should be involved and yet no one wants to use her.

[Project Initiative Cascada]

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You mean this lineup? HELLS YES

One of my favorite X-Men team lineups overall. Ugh, I really wish Wolverine wasn't a fucking idiot and made Rachel leave the team. The lineup after Mutant Massacre wasn't the same without Kitty, Nightcrawler, and most especially Rachel.

[Sundowhn]

This is exactly the type of stuff that keeps Rachel is the position she's in now, Rachel needs to find her own niche and team where she can function without being the Jean substitute why the hell she isn't on X-force with her brother is beyond me.

I see what you're saying here, but I meant more as the team telepath, not Jean's wider role.

[Sundowhn]

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You mean this lineup? HELLS YES

My favorite line-up ever for the X-Men proper

[Daithi]

It's made more obvious when she's written by Claremont I mean who else would come up with the story "End of Greys" a story assuredly meant for Jean.

No it wasn't. It was to tie in to Rachel's DOFP history when her family was killed there too. Her family dead and Sentinels surrounding the mansion and mutants being wiped out. She says it to Betsy that history is repeating and she can't stop it.

[Askani's Flame]

She literally came in as the redheaded daughter of Jean Grey with TP/TK and an affinity for the PF and then went on to adopt the mantle, powers, and codename of both Marvel Girl and Phoenix.

The bolded part is correct, as that is how she was introduced when she arrived to 616. Any codenames or affinities to the PF came after she was already on the team.

A stand in isn't meant to be the character just meant to fill a role or roles a previous character held the only reason she joined the X-men was because of Jean her entire time on the team was reflection on her life and connection to Jean Grey.

I feel like you have three sentences in here. I understand the concept of a stand-in, but your broad explanation would mean that Psylocke and Storm were also Jean stand-ins, filling roles as women or telepaths. Meaning that Betsy was a stand in for Rachel, as Claremont wanted the team to have a telepath. And when did Rachel say, "Yes Xavier, I'm joining the team because Jean Grey was my mom and I want to be connected to her"? The X-Men were her family, her family that she saw slaughtered (or unwillingly helped slaughter) in her timeline. And now they are alive, different, but alive. You wouldn't take solace in wanting to be with them, regardless of your parentage? Joining the X-Men gave her an opportunity to stop being a teenager on the run and start making a new life for herself. And to prevent her future from coming true. Of course her connection to Jean is going to come up, and yes once she heard what happened to the Jean in the reality she was determined to do her proud and try to undo some of the damage to the Grey name. But that is a stretch to say that her motivating factor to join the X-Men was because of Jean.

It wasn't until she joined Excalibur that she had something that was her own and not connected to Jean or Scott. And Jean was never the stand in for Xavier especially because he was never on the team he was their leader, and the only things him and Jean shared in common was telepathy which she'd gained later on and even then she is still remember more for her telekinesis as it is the first power she started with that and Jean eventually surpassed Xavier and stepped out of his shadow as teacher and came into her own when you think of Xavier or Jean their not mutually exclusive but when you think of Rachel the first name pops into mind is Jean. It's made more obvious when she's written by Claremont

Slow down, it will help you with your run-on sentences and punctuation. Excalibur was definitely one of the best moves for her character, but she still dealt with being Jean and Scott's child throughout her travels in the multiverse. Yes Jean eventually surpassed Xavier in TP, but I would say that only happened much later after her resurrection. I'm lost in your run-ons so I'm not sure what point you're making prior to the relationship bit. Yes, especially now with her last name changed to "Grey", Rachel is linked to Jean (personally I go more Kitty than Jean, but that's me). I don't see the problem with it, it's a familial tie. You'd be hard pressed to make that claim with Xavier and Jean, as the natural person you think of for Xavier would be Magneto.

I mean who else would come up with the story "End of Greys" a story assuredly meant for Jean.

"End of Greys" was about Rachel, and Jean in terms of familial and Phoenix connections. The legacy of Jean and the legacy of Rachel being a former host and being related to Jean. By your insinuations you could essentially swap Rachel and Jean in this story and have the same story told, which is utterly ridiculous. Had Jean been the focal character and not Rachel, the whole premise of the Grey gathering would not have happened. It would have have the same title, but the story would have to be drastically different.

The question I think you have to ask is each time Rachel joined the X-men would she have still even been an option if Jean was around? It's the same with her presence in XX if Jean were still here who'd you think would make a better fit with those characters.

Wait, why does anyone need to sit and think about why Rachel is on a team? She has her own history with the X-Men that her inclusion is warranted outside of Jean. Sure there are definitely correlations to her arrival but it's not always because Jean is gone or dead. Claremont wanted to bring Rachel back much sooner in Xtreme X-Men but they were told Psylocke was to remain dead longer and Rachel was still under Weinberg's pen. So her inclusion came later as Bogan's TP. But back to the point at hand, everytime Rachel comes back there is no reason to ponder why is Rachel being used and not Jean. That's for you Jean fans to worry about. And no, I don't think that her being in XX would be a better fit, she doesn't have ANY of the same dynamics that Rachel does with these characters. Rachel has a different, and in some cases stronger, connection to the XX ladies than Jean. And there is nothing wrong with that. If Jean was in the book it would be entirely different than what it is now. Hell, I don't even think she'd be associated with the JGS, she'd be too pissed with Schism to be associated with either of Logan or Scott's schools.

I say none of this to invalidate Rachel as a character all I'm saying is when she is put on teams or in places that would naturally be where Jean would be then the connection is always made to Jean the same isn't true of Cable and that's what she needs a separation from all things connected to Jean and find her own space to occupy it's one of the reasons she keeps getting left out of stories she should be involved and yet no one wants to use her.

It sounds like you are going out of your way to invalidate her, TBH. She's not always Jean's filler, but sometimes yes it does look that way. And I don't think her connection to Jean is the reason no one uses her, it's because writers and editors are lazy and have pets they are trying to push. Hope was the biggest Jean troll, and of Rachel to a certain extent. Now it's Quentin with this Askani arc in WatX (which is definitely a Rachel story with no Jean element). Until writers actually do some research and get to know her character, they will continue to keep her out of things because she's "too confusing" otherwise. Hell, I'm still waiting for a Jean Rachel team-up (when real Jean comes back) to show how they are different characters and can exist in a book without 616 exploding.

[Daymare]

One of my favorite X-Men team lineups overall. Ugh, I really wish Wolverine wasn't a fucking idiot and made Rachel leave the team. The lineup after Mutant Massacre wasn't the same without Kitty, Nightcrawler, and most especially Rachel.

But then we would have not gotten Excalibur, where the three of them had way more chacraterization than they EVER would have in the X-line proper.
What I think they need to do with Rachel is have her go to her "Hound" type roots. Be a tracker, the human cerebra. They need to stop writing her as a victim type chacrater as she was always a strong girl, a little twisted, but strong and determined.
The way to break her from the Jean shadow is just to have her stand on her own two feet and be aggresive. Take the Grey and go back to Summers as the last 2 living Greys (Jeen and Cable) do not give her proper recognition and Scott actually acknolwedges her as family. Get her on an arc where she regains her Phoenix birthright (or at least tries) and there is.

[Daithi]

I think removing her from the Phoenix stuff and have her go back to a more Hound/Punk mode. I think the drill sergeant that Aaron had her in that one issue was a good thing. Have her be the protector of the school. Or have her be a one-woman X-force and strike out on her own.

To be honest she does make better sense to be on X-Force or Scott's team but that aint happening. She doesn't fit into the JGS

[Askani's Flame]

But then we would have not gotten Excalibur, where the three of them had way more chacraterization than they EVER would have in the X-line proper.
What I think they need to do with Rachel is have her go to her "Hound" type roots. Be a tracker, the human cerebra. They need to stop writing her as a victim type chacrater as she was always a strong girl, a little twisted, but strong and determined.
The way to break her from the Jean shadow is just to have her stand on her own two feet and be aggresive. Take the Grey and go back to Summers as the last 2 living Greys (Jeen and Cable) do not give her proper recognition and Scott actually acknolwedges her as family. Get her on an arc where she regains her Phoenix birthright (or at least tries) and there is.

I say going back to Summers is a good start. If people/editors/writers are concerned she's always in Jean's shadow, giving her Jean's last name and code names are not the way to resolve anything. Rachel doesn't need to get the Phoenix back. The Phoenix is a shitty concept at this point that has been ruined by QQ, Hope, and AvX. Have her explore her Askani memories (fractured by she still has some) and trainings. She'll be badass in no time. She was, in fact, the creator of the fighting technique using the psiscimatar.