Superman and Wonder Woman struggling with Batman villains

[Vanguard-01]

Prometheus was created to fight the Justice League(or at least the second one was) everything after Morrison was a mess but he laid the foundation for the jobbing that this character would bring to the DCU

Ah! Yes! I will also comment about this.

While it's true that I'm no fan of Morrion's run, I will say that I agree with Nite-Wing about Prometheus. Morrison's Prometheus took down the Justice League one at a time, and in believable ways. His plans involved not allowing the Leaguers to use the advantages that normally would've allowed them to stop him easily. Prometheus robbed Flash of any option of using his superspeed, for example.

Contrast that with, say Cry for Justice? Where Prometheus basically just stood still and mowed down two entire Justice Leagues with weapons that just magically dropped them all. It completely ignored superspeed, super toughness, and the sheer numbers advantage that the League had. That Prometheus should've gone down in two seconds. Long before he even started to pick his targets.

Morrison's Prometheus? Not Batgod. Just good writing. I'll give Morrison that one. Every other Prometheus? Not even Batgod. Just crappy and lazy writing.

[Punisher007]

Depends on the villain and the method really.

-The Poison Ivy one is fine. As others have already pointed out, Ivy was mixing kryptonite with her own toxins, and that kind of combination has proven effective against Superman in the past.

-The Clayface one is also fine. Not only is he super-strong and durable, but he's specifically a villain that you CANNOT defeat through simple physical force. Batman cannot do it, and neither can WW, or Superman for that matter.

-As for Ra's, this falls under the "depends on the method" category. In a straight-up fight like the one above, no he shouldn't really be a match for WW. However, Ra's is a genius who's been around for centuries. He COULD probably give WW trouble if he used other, less direct methods.

[Punisher007]

Ah! Yes! I will also comment about this.

While it's true that I'm no fan of Morrion's run, I will say that I agree with Nite-Wing about Prometheus. Morrison's Prometheus took down the Justice League one at a time, and in believable ways. His plans involved not allowing the Leaguers to use the advantages that normally would've allowed them to stop him easily. Prometheus robbed Flash of any option of using his superspeed, for example.

Contrast that with, say Cry for Justice? Where Prometheus basically just stood still and mowed down two entire Justice Leagues with weapons that just magically dropped them all. It completely ignored superspeed, super toughness, and the sheer numbers advantage that the League had. That Prometheus should've gone down in two seconds. Long before he even started to pick his targets.

Morrison's Prometheus? Not Batgod. Just good writing. I'll give Morrison that one. Every other Prometheus? Not even Batgod. Just crappy and lazy writing.

He also beat them all in like ONE PANEL each, and James Robinson made the JLer's look like idiots in the process. For example, why is Zatanna charging in on Prometheus (so that he can conveniently shoot her in the throat to prevent her from speaking her spells) instead of standing back and using her magic? Why doesn't GL just fly up and crush Prometheus with a giant green fist or something? How is Donna Troy, who's got super-strength, speed, AND enhanced stamina taken down so easily, etc etc etc?

[Sacred Knight]

I was unaware that Ivy was utilizing Kryptonite in that story. I take back what I said about that one. That one counts as actually thinking things through.

[Punisher007]

Yeah, if it had just been Ivy's toxins then I might have had an issue with it (I'm not sure how effective they'd be against a Superman who's at full-strength). But with the kryptonite weakening him first, yeah I can buy it working. Actually The Batman TV from a few years back did something kind of similar to that. Lex Luthor captures Ivy and uses her toxins, combined with some kryptonite dust, to put Superman under mind-control (which sets up the inevitable Superman vs. Batman fight).

[Rakzo]

If we're talking about Batman himself, I remember a pretty stupid story where he actually punched Wonder Woman in the stomach and knocked her out instead of, you know, breaking all the bones of his hand.

Plus, if we're talking about other cases of villains being upgraded while the rest of the characters are downgraded to ridiculous levels, one of my favorites/most hated examples is Cupid in Kreisberg's GA&BC where she single-handedly destroyed most of GA's rogues gallery which included characters like Brick and Merlyn who should for all accounts have killed her instantly.

[The True Detective]

Superman's main nemesis is Lex Luthor...

Yeah it's funny how people easily accept Lex Luthor as being a legit threat to Superman but people don't take Ra's al Ghul or the Joker seriously as threats to him. If regular humans like Lex Luthor and Captain Cold are seen as acceptable threats to the likes of Superman and the Flash I don't see why Batman and his villains aren't too.

[colonyofcells]

JL has had many human villains who used science and or magic to beat the whole JL. It is quite believable for the long lived Ras Al Ghul and Joker to have more knowledge of science and magic similar to Vandal Savage. Dr Tzin Tzin can probably mind control the whole JL similar to Despero.

[Vanguard-01]

Yeah it's funny how people easily accept Lex Luthor as being a legit threat to Superman but people don't take Ra's al Ghul or the Joker seriously as threats to him. If regular humans like Lex Luthor and Captain Cold are seen as acceptable threats to the likes of Superman and the Flash I don't see why Batman and his villains aren't too.

We don't take Ra's seriously when he faces Superman or Wonder Woman with nothing but his sword in his hand and somehow wins or even looks like he's got a snowball's chance in Hell of winning. Ra's is a genius with nearly limitless resources. Just like Lex. If Ra's goes after Superman with an elaborate scheme, on par with what Lex does, then most people (including me) will accept it with no problem. But the mere idea that a powerless man can somehow survive a sword fight with Wonder Woman is utterly ridiculous, unless he somehow took precautions ahead of time to somehow negate Diana's physical advantages over him. Which he did not in that story.

Same story for Joker. He's no physical threat to Superman and other powered members of the League. If he concocts a scheme that actually suggests some careful planning and forethought? Sure, most people (including me, once again) will accept it. Endgame is rejected because there was no setup and no elaborate planning. Joker just pulled a mind control toxin that somehow works on the entire Justice League out of his ass and it worked perfectly.

A good example of Joker being a threat to Superman? Injustice, anyone? He arranged to kill Lois. Worse than that: he arranged to manipulate Superman into killing Lois AND Metropolis with his own two hands. Now, the video game didn't get into how Joker was able to drug Superman into thinking Lois was Doomsday, but the comic, thankfully, did. Just like the Ivy scene from Hush, it was a combination of mind altering drugs and Kryptonite, a combination proven time and again to be effective.

[The True Detective]

We don't take Ra's seriously when he faces Superman or Wonder Woman with nothing but his sword in his hand and somehow wins or even looks like he's got a snowball's chance in Hell of winning. Ra's is a genius with nearly limitless resources. Just like Lex. If Ra's goes after Superman with an elaborate scheme, on par with what Lex does, then most people (including me) will accept it with no problem. But the mere idea that a powerless man can somehow survive a sword fight with Wonder Woman is utterly ridiculous, unless he somehow took precautions ahead of time to somehow negate Diana's physical advantages over him. Which he did not in that story.

Same story for Joker. He's no physical threat to Superman and other powered members of the League. If he concocts a scheme that actually suggests some careful planning and forethought? Sure, most people (including me, once again) will accept it. Endgame is rejected because there was no setup and no elaborate planning. Joker just pulled a mind control toxin that somehow works on the entire Justice League out of his ass and it worked perfectly.

A good example of Joker being a threat to Superman? Injustice, anyone? He arranged to kill Lois. Worse than that: he arranged to manipulate Superman into killing Lois AND Metropolis with his own two hands. Now, the video game didn't get into how Joker was able to drug Superman into thinking Lois was Doomsday, but the comic, thankfully, did. Just like the Ivy scene from Hush, it was a combination of mind altering drugs and Kryptonite, a combination proven time and again to be effective.

Obviously they shouldn't be challenging them physically but if they use tech and strategy like Lex does there should be no issue. But there is when it comes to Batman and his villains against Superman level beings. If Batman fights Superman in a battle suit we'll hear people complain that it's unrealisitc because Superman could just easily blitz and rip it to shreds. Lex faces Superman in a battle suit? These same issues are never brought up, no one asks why Superman doesn't blitz Lex and tear his suit apart. With Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice I can't count how many times people said the idea is stupid and casuals won't take it seriously because Superman is a God and Batman is just a man in a Halloween costume. As if casual fans aren't used to seeing Superman facing a regular human, as if they haven't seen Iron Man fight Thor in The Avengers and will see him face the Hulk in Age of Ultron. For some reason a human fighting a God is only a issue people when it's Batman or one of his villains

[Outside_85]

At times the answer is yes. Snyders Joker with his one-size-fits-all venom is certainly proof of that... but I am deeply hoping all of this is explained as Bruce having a nightmare; that the Joker is older than spit and that he can get to anyone regardless of who and what they are. (but so far Snyder appears to sell it as 'this is real' in interviews).

Of the scans provided so far;
WW vs Ra's: Trinity is a non-canon story where Diana is also beaten up by Bizarro, who in turn is defeated by Batman using a strong flashlight (basically), most WW fans consider it a huge pile of WW-lowballing.

Ivy controlling Superman: Mixing her poisons with kryptonite is fine, the problem most people have with that story is how Batman deals with Superman.

Clayface vs WW: This is by far the worst offender of the scans provided, in my book. While true that Clayface isn't exactly someone you can punch into submission, repeated blows from someone with Diana's strength is still going to leave chunks of him splattered over the area, not to mention Diana has the option of kicking a firehydrant over and wash the bits away.
But that's not the worst of it, what grates me is that the writer somehow made Clayface able to tear out chucks of the clay that made up Diana when she was created, empowering him and deaging her to Donna's age and appearance. Normally Diana has been depicted as turning to clay in the case of her death, but while alive her body is made of flesh and blood like everyone else's (because magic), so what Clayface did shouldn't have been possible (it's his power vs the spell of half a dozen greek gods).

Also there are other examples of other heroes getting low-balled in some way or form when they end up facing Batman's enemies. Lobdells Teen Titans for instance basically caved in after having to deal with a bunch of Gotham hobo's that had been Joker-poisoned... the same team that only recently got out of what was a concentration camp for meta-teenagers. The two other jewels from this DotF tie in: Joker sneaking into Tim's apartment under the teams noses and makes off with Tim, and Batgirl's suit being made up of somekind of shock plates that can send people flying several feet back if they touch her (never heard of before or seen again if I am not mistaken).

...this is probably why I liked when WML's depowered leather-getup Diana of the early 90'ties tangled with Ivy and Joker so much more than these more recent encounters.

[Vanguard-01]

Obviously they shouldn't be challenging them physically but if they use tech and strategy like Lex does there should be no issue. But there is when it comes to Batman and his villains against Superman level beings. If Batman fights Superman in a battle suit we'll hear people complain that it's unrealisitc because Superman could just easily blitz and rip it to shreds. Lex faces Superman in a battle suit? These same issues are never brought up, no one asks why Superman doesn't blitz Lex and tear his suit apart. With Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice I can't count how many times people said the idea is stupid and casuals won't take it seriously because Superman is a God and Batman is just a man in a Halloween costume. As if casual fans aren't used to seeing Superman facing a regular human, as if they haven't seen Iron Man fight Thor in The Avengers and will see him face the Hulk in Age of Ultron. For some reason a human fighting a God is only a issue people when it's Batman or one of his villains

I will point out that I do, in fact, have a problem with Lex fighting Superman in a suit of power armor, just like I do when Batman does it. Both Lex's suits and Batman's suits suffer from the same problem: they're being piloted by guys who do not have superspeed. So, you guys are packing a ton of weapons? Great! Too bad Superman will rush in and wreck them before you even get to target him.

I'm not a fan of Lex fighting Superman with power armor. I miss the days where Lex put Superman in elaborate death traps, or when he used to strike at Superman indirectly through robots, paid agents, and/or other more remote means. If Lex, Ra's, Batman, or anyone else without power is going to go after Superman, the whole idea should be to never even be in the same room as he is. Power suits just aren't the way to go. If I were going to try to take down Superman, I'd concentrate on building weapons that can hurt him and set them off against him from a nice, safe distance away. Drones, death traps, orbital weapons....these are effective ways to put a hurting on Superman. Pulling a weapon on him and expecting him to stay perfectly still while you aim and fire is not. I don't care who's doing it.

Iron Man fighting Thor isn't a good example of this issue. Especially in the movies, Thor has displayed great strength and power, but no superspeed to speak of. It's believable that Stark could fight Thor because he at least has a chance of avoiding Thor's attacks. Yeah, those attacks are crazy powerful, and Stark wants to avoid being hit as much as he can. But Thor, and especially movie Thor, has rarely demonstrated true speed blitzing capability, so it's more believable than Lex or Batman vs Superman.

The fact that Stark DID, in fact, get his suit wrecked when he fought Thor also makes people less inclined to call BS on that fight. Stark was clearly losing that fight.

Ditto for the upcoming Hulk fight. Same issue. Hulk is strong, but he's not super fast. Especially not in the movies. He's a big bruiser, and Stark should be avoiding his punches. But he still doesn't look like he should be able to rush in and wreck Stark before Stark can even bring his weapons to bear.

That's the big difference when comparing Marvel and DC storylines. Superspeed is MUCH more common in DC than it is in Marvel. And superspeed is THE power that makes powerless humans fighting powered ones seem improbable. Take away Superman's superspeed, and people will be a lot less likely to write off Batman as having no real chance against him. If he's just strong and tough, that's workable. But the fact that he's strong, tough, AND fast? That's the big difference maker.

And before you bring up Flash and his rogues? I remind you that most Flash fans would agree that Flash's best stories where he was challenged by his Rogues are the stories where they work together, using all their respective weapons to turn the entire battlefield into a hostile environment that Flash finds it difficult to run through. Flash's rogues are rarely trying to kill him. Just to hold him off so they can get away from their latest heist.

[JBatmanFan05]

I'm fine with all these heroes struggling with villains. Batman, Superman, and WW all have trouble with Batman's foes, Superman's foes, and WW's foes. I'm not nearly as sensitive about this or that villain looking more capable than he usually is. And I always deliberately offer joking responses to versus threads as people take them so seriously. Batman vs Silver Surfer?...Batman would win.

[Punisher007]

Well maybe not WW villains, they tend to get jobbed out to other heroes. Apparently both Batman and Catwoman can knock out Cheetah very easily, which is such BS. And GA can apparently stop her with just a garden-variety trick arrow/cable, which is also BS. Batman can apparently beat Circe in a magical duel using just a book/a few magic words that Zatanna gave/told him, and so on.

[Blacksun]

Yeah you could say that. Ra's made her loose her sword and bleed.

this was a good showing, she slapped him like he was a simple thug