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  1. #106
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    While I can see where some of the complaints are coming from I still enjoyed this issue. Sure, the art was inconsistent (is Finch experimenting with different models for Wonder Womans face?) and the story is rather light, but still for the most part the art was great to look at and I am intrigued by the story. The style seems to be show something in the story and then maybe explain it in a later issue, which I am mostly fine with since I do not have much preconceived ideas of what the story should be, but it does mean putting a lot of faith in the writing which I am not sure has earned it yet.

    Though, the hints are there that not everything is right, even if it is just Wonder Woman under the pressure of too many duties, or if she is fighting the corruption of being the god of war, or someone else is influencing her. So I will see how this arc turns out, have a better sense of the writing style, before worrying too much about a few things that seem to not add up quite yet.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    She's probably the only one in Justice League who isn't afraid to deal with her villains harshly and accept the consequences. That just adds to her awesome.
    This is the kind of attitude that has been slowly ruining Wonder Woman for quite some time now.

    Go watch Xena, Warrior Princess if you want that crap. I want Wonder Woman.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_munroex View Post
    Can someone also tell me WHY Derino is so OLD? Don't the Amazons look youthful while on the island??
    I see several possible explanations.

    1.) The Amazons recruited women from all over the world before they went to Paradise Island. Derinoe may have already been an old woman when she joined the Amazons, and once she came to the island, she simply stopped aging.

    2.) Amazon culture has a strong Greek influence. The Ancient Greeks put a great deal of stock in the concept of a triune feminine force represented by "Maiden, Mother, and Crone." Derinoe may have some kind of role in Amazon society that requires her to serve the role of "Crone." Thus, she may have somehow given up her youth as some kind of ritual sacrifice kind of deal.

    3.) Perhaps Derinoe ran afoul of a god or magic user at some point, and her youth was taken from her as a punishment, or some such.

    4.) We already know Derinoe is in league with Hekate. Maybe Derinoe is a priestess of Hekate, and again gave up her youth as some kind of devotion to her.

    5.) Derinoe may not be an Amazon at all. She may be some kind of agent of Hekate's, disguised as an Amazon. Hekate could be altering everyone's memories, so that they only THINK they remember Derinoe always being one of them.

    6.) Derinoe may have somehow been away from the island for a very long time. Maybe she was exiled, like Hessia, or maybe she left the island for some reason, or maybe she was somehow prevented from returning to the island. Either way, we know Hessia has aged since her exile, so Derinoe may have aged even further.

    And finally....

    7.) It's quite possible that Derinoe is not what she seems at all. She could be either Strife or Hekate in disguise, again using magic to make everyone think she's always been with them.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  4. #109
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    Diana should just kill all the other Justice Leaguers, they're too weak to do what needs to be done. And besides, it's her Amazon nature.
    How ironic (choke)

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    Diana should just kill all the other Justice Leaguers, they're too weak to do what needs to be done. And besides, it's her Amazon nature.
    says the phantom of hippolyta, that it is the amazon nature. anyway nature shouldn't win nurture and good sense.

    violence only causes more violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaffrey View Post
    This is the kind of attitude that has been slowly ruining Wonder Woman for quite some time now.
    agree with you, ths warrior brute approach ruins what WW should stand for

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    says the phantom of hippolyta, that it is the amazon nature. anyway nature shouldn't win nurture and good sense.
    Irony, my friend!
    How ironic (choke)

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    I see several possible explanations.

    1.) The Amazons recruited women from all over the world before they went to Paradise Island. Derinoe may have already been an old woman when she joined the Amazons, and once she came to the island, she simply stopped aging.

    2.) Amazon culture has a strong Greek influence. The Ancient Greeks put a great deal of stock in the concept of a triune feminine force represented by "Maiden, Mother, and Crone." Derinoe may have some kind of role in Amazon society that requires her to serve the role of "Crone." Thus, she may have somehow given up her youth as some kind of ritual sacrifice kind of deal.

    3.) Perhaps Derinoe ran afoul of a god or magic user at some point, and her youth was taken from her as a punishment, or some such.

    4.) We already know Derinoe is in league with Hekate. Maybe Derinoe is a priestess of Hekate, and again gave up her youth as some kind of devotion to her.

    5.) Derinoe may not be an Amazon at all. She may be some kind of agent of Hekate's, disguised as an Amazon. Hekate could be altering everyone's memories, so that they only THINK they remember Derinoe always being one of them.

    6.) Derinoe may have somehow been away from the island for a very long time. Maybe she was exiled, like Hessia, or maybe she left the island for some reason, or maybe she was somehow prevented from returning to the island. Either way, we know Hessia has aged since her exile, so Derinoe may have aged even further.

    And finally....

    7.) It's quite possible that Derinoe is not what she seems at all. She could be either Strife or Hekate in disguise, again using magic to make everyone think she's always been with them.
    Thanks for the explanation Vanguard!
    I think you struck something with point #2..Derinoe looks like an old crone, Donna is referred to as a maiden... Who's the mother? O_o
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  8. #113
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    Was that really the spirit of her mom or is a villain just trying to mess with Wonder Woman?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superguy View Post
    Was that really the spirit of her mom or is a villain just trying to mess with Wonder Woman?
    I already put forward this theory that ALL of Diana's irrational behaviors may be due to a villain's meddling. Some people here just want to believe that the Finches are actively trying to destroy Wonder Woman.

    We already know there are two goddesses involved in this story. Strife has a history of messing with people's minds. We don't know what exactly Hekate can do, but in mythology, she seems to be able to do a little bit of everything and she was considered extremely powerful. Either one of them could be messing with Diana's head.

    There's also this weird reptile lady we saw a couple issues ago. Who knows?

    Quote Originally Posted by malachi_munroex View Post
    Thanks for the explanation Vanguard!
    I think you struck something with point #2..Derinoe looks like an old crone, Donna is referred to as a maiden... Who's the mother? O_o
    If Hippolyta were alive, she'd have my vote. But who can say?

    The Mother usually represents life, the present, and the growing of things. I guess right now it would be Diana.
    Last edited by Vanguard-01; 02-20-2015 at 01:24 PM.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  10. #115
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    I don't think they're actively trying to destroy anything, nor do I believe that anyone else here thinks they set out to do so (I could be wrong)

    I still find it hard to believe that Hippolyta's spirit is anything but the real thing, but I could be wrong. Nothing she said at all struck Diana as wrong or out of place; she didn't think there was anything wrong with her mother telling her about the 'Amazon Way.' If she *weren't* raised to channel fear into violence, wouldn't she speak up?

    And if she's *that* mind controlled, then there's no point in this illusion anyway - she'll believe anything anyone tells her, so this seems a bit extreme. Why try to fool someone you already have under your thumb?

    Had Diana at any point during that conversation questioned anything 'ghost mom' was telling her, then I'd lend more credence to your theory, but she just smiled and seemed happy that Hippolyta helped her clear it all up.

    "You're violent and trying to kill everything because that's the way an Amazon is trained to be. It's not the influence of the god of war - it's just who you are!"

    "Thanks for reminding me, mom!"

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I don't think they're actively trying to destroy anything, nor do I believe that anyone else here thinks they set out to do so (I could be wrong)

    I still find it hard to believe that Hippolyta's spirit is anything but the real thing, but I could be wrong. Nothing she said at all struck Diana as wrong or out of place; she didn't think there was anything wrong with her mother telling her about the 'Amazon Way.' If she *weren't* raised to channel fear into violence, wouldn't she speak up?

    And if she's *that* mind controlled, then there's no point in this illusion anyway - she'll believe anything anyone tells her, so this seems a bit extreme. Why try to fool someone you already have under your thumb?

    Had Diana at any point during that conversation questioned anything 'ghost mom' was telling her, then I'd lend more credence to your theory, but she just smiled and seemed happy that Hippolyta helped her clear it all up.

    "You're violent and trying to kill everything because that's the way an Amazon is trained to be. It's not the influence of the god of war - it's just who you are!"

    "Thanks for reminding me, mom!"
    Diana isn't supposed to notice the tampering until a critical moment. That wasn't it. That illusion would be just the spur to push Diana into conflict with Donna. Someone WANTS Diana to believe nothing's wrong with her.

    This type of mind control is actually easier to overlook than full-on "Do my bidding" stuff. Diana's memories and perceptions are altered just enough that she believes nothing is wrong, and things that normally would set off her alarms are overlooked. Her violent tendencies? It's actually pretty subtle to just slightly lower Diana's natural inhibitions to make her a little more prone toward aggressive action.

    I said it earlier, as well: if Hippolyta's ghost was on the up-and-up, then why didn't she tell Diana that she was murdered, and by whom she was murdered? Derinoe's whole plot falls to pieces if that happens. So, why wouldn't Hippolyta want to see her murderer fail?

    The only possible explanation is either Hippolyta's ghost was somehow completely unaware of what happened to her body, or that the ghost ISN'T Hippolyta at all, and whoever conjured it doesn't want Diana going after Derinoe.

    Doesn't it seem awfully convenient that, just as Diana was beginning to doubt herself, the spirit of the person she most desperately wants to see shows up and tells her "No, honey. Everything's fine. You go right on doing this very uncharacteristic stuff?"
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Diana isn't supposed to notice the tampering until a critical moment. That wasn't it. That illusion would be just the spur to push Diana into conflict with Donna. Someone WANTS Diana to believe nothing's wrong with her.

    This type of mind control is actually easier to overlook than full-on "Do my bidding" stuff. Diana's memories and perceptions are altered just enough that she believes nothing is wrong, and things that normally would set off her alarms are overlooked. Her violent tendencies? It's actually pretty subtle to just slightly lower Diana's natural inhibitions to make her a little more prone toward aggressive action.

    I said it earlier, as well: if Hippolyta's ghost was on the up-and-up, then why didn't she tell Diana that she was murdered, and by whom she was murdered? Derinoe's whole plot falls to pieces if that happens. So, why wouldn't Hippolyta want to see her murderer fail?

    The only possible explanation is either Hippolyta's ghost was somehow completely unaware of what happened to her body, or that the ghost ISN'T Hippolyta at all, and whoever conjured it doesn't want Diana going after Derinoe.

    Doesn't it seem awfully convenient that, just as Diana was beginning to doubt herself, the spirit of the person she most desperately wants to see shows up and tells her "No, honey. Everything's fine. You go right on doing this very uncharacteristic stuff?"
    I agree with you now that something weird is happening and i don't think that's the real Hippolyta. Also the art for Hippolyta was beautiful, as a matter of fact, just about every Amazon, Donna Troy, and character are dawn better than Wonder Woman.

  13. #118
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Diana isn't supposed to notice the tampering until a critical moment. That wasn't it. That illusion would be just the spur to push Diana into conflict with Donna. Someone WANTS Diana to believe nothing's wrong with her.

    This type of mind control is actually easier to overlook than full-on "Do my bidding" stuff. Diana's memories and perceptions are altered just enough that she believes nothing is wrong, and things that normally would set off her alarms are overlooked. Her violent tendencies? It's actually pretty subtle to just slightly lower Diana's natural inhibitions to make her a little more prone toward aggressive action.

    I said it earlier, as well: if Hippolyta's ghost was on the up-and-up, then why didn't she tell Diana that she was murdered, and by whom she was murdered? Derinoe's whole plot falls to pieces if that happens. So, why wouldn't Hippolyta want to see her murderer fail?

    The only possible explanation is either Hippolyta's ghost was somehow completely unaware of what happened to her body, or that the ghost ISN'T Hippolyta at all, and whoever conjured it doesn't want Diana going after Derinoe.

    Doesn't it seem awfully convenient that, just as Diana was beginning to doubt herself, the spirit of the person she most desperately wants to see shows up and tells her "No, honey. Everything's fine. You go right on doing this very uncharacteristic stuff?"
    Why didn't the Manazons mention the new Queen when Diana came to see them?

    Why didn't Superman respond on the radio so that Batman and Wonder Woman had to go looking for him?

    Why was Hippolyta stone again?

    Why hasn't anyone questioned the murder of Hippolyta and the disappearance of her 'body?'

    Why hasn't there been a funeral for Hippolyta?

    Why hasn't anyone (Diana?) tried to appeal to the gods to return Hippolyta to them since she was turned to stone by Hera?

    Why hasn't Diana taken a leave of absence from the Justice League to go mourn her mother?

    Why hasn't a single teammate who we see her spending all of her time with give her any words of condolence about the loss of her mother?

    Where did the Amazon baby come from that was used in the creation of Donna Troy?

    Why does Donna Troy have a last name when no other Amazon has one?

    Why doesn't Diana know about the metal birds or the beasties that belong to the god of war?

    Why don't those beasties heed her word?

    Why do those beasties go looking for her in Themyscira when she's never ever there?

    Why is Diana ignoring Themyscira to sit around in jet planes and chit chat with her JL teammates?

    Just a few issues in and lots of questions that we have to make up answers to, so it's hard for me, personally, to view any of Diana's behavior as 'uncharacteristic' when so many things are happening that don't really make much sense.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Why didn't the Manazons mention the new Queen when Diana came to see them?
    Because the Manazons JUST told Diana that they'd been kept out of the city.

    Why didn't Superman respond on the radio so that Batman and Wonder Woman had to go looking for him?
    In a cave? Easy enough to say he had some signal disruption, or something.

    Why was Hippolyta stone again?
    Maybe Derinoe and/or Hekate and/or Strife had something to do with it. Step One in this scheme to takeover Paradise Island.

    Why hasn't anyone questioned the murder of Hippolyta and the disappearance of her 'body?'
    There may be an investigation going on right now. It just isn't important to the story, since they're not going to find anything out until Diana does.

    Why hasn't there been a funeral for Hippolyta?
    1.) There may have been one. Just not important enough to show.

    2.) There are many cultures with very different funeral rites from what we're used to. The Norse left a body in an earthen mound for ten days before having the funeral. The Egyptians waited seventy-seven days preparing the body before a funeral. Maybe the Amazons have a similar custom. For their dead queen, anyway. Obviously, in Azz's run, we saw the Amazons can have very quick funerals, when needed.

    Why hasn't anyone (Diana?) tried to appeal to the gods to return Hippolyta to them since she was turned to stone by Hera?
    As far as we know, there is no new God of the Dead, yet. Only Hades could restore the dead to life. Hades is either dead or badly injured and in need of recovery. Easy enough to suggest that there's no one Diana CAN talk to about bringing Hippolyta back, right now.

    Why hasn't Diana taken a leave of absence from the Justice League to go mourn her mother?
    This plays into my theory that Diana's personality is being affected in some way.

    Why hasn't a single teammate who we see her spending all of her time with give her any words of condolence about the loss of her mother?
    Aren't you among the fans demanding that the rest of the League just disappear in a puff of smoke in this book? Never to return?

    Maybe they have expressed their condolences. Once again? How important is that to the story?

    Where did the Amazon baby come from that was used in the creation of Donna Troy?
    I'll admit, that one doesn't make much sense.

    Why does Donna Troy have a last name when no other Amazon has one?
    Don't know. Don't care. I'm just glad to have Donna back.

    Why doesn't Diana know about the metal birds or the beasties that belong to the god of war?
    Because the title of "God of War" didn't come with an instruction manual and a list of all available assets?

    Why don't those beasties heed her word?
    Because someone else has usurped control over them? Two other gods involved in this story so far, I remind you. One of whom was VERY close to Ares.

    Maybe Diana hasn't yet fully solidified her power as God of War, and they don't yet recognize her authority until she proves herself worthy of commanding them?

    Why do those beasties go looking for her in Themyscira when she's never ever there?
    See above. They may be controlled by another force. They are attacking Themiscyra to further stir up the Amazon's resentment of Diana.

    It may even be a lie that the beasties are looking for her at all.

    Why is Diana ignoring Themyscira to sit around in jet planes and chit chat with her JL teammates?
    She created a ruling council to handle the government in her stead. She clearly thought her people could govern themselves. Seems like she gave them far too much credit. That's a fairly standard Wonder Woman flaw, right? Believing people are better than they are?

    Just a few issues in and lots of questions that we have to make up answers to, so it's hard for me, personally, to view any of Diana's behavior as 'uncharacteristic' when so many things are happening that don't really make much sense.
    And all these questions had nothing to do with Diana's uncharacteristic behavior.

    I was addressing her violent tendencies and her belief that she's supposed to be this way. I was addressing the issue of Hippolyta's ghost. Those are the big issues. Most of the rest of these questions of yours can be chalked up to either "Not important to the story being told," or "Not the best writing ever."
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  15. #120
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    Because the Manazons JUST told Diana that they'd been kept out of the city.



    In a cave? Easy enough to say he had some signal disruption, or something.



    Maybe Derinoe and/or Hekate and/or Strife had something to do with it. Step One in this scheme to takeover Paradise Island.



    There may be an investigation going on right now. It just isn't important to the story, since they're not going to find anything out until Diana does.



    1.) There may have been one. Just not important enough to show.

    2.) There are many cultures with very different funeral rites from what we're used to. The Norse left a body in an earthen mound for ten days before having the funeral. The Egyptians waited seventy-seven days preparing the body before a funeral. Maybe the Amazons have a similar custom. For their dead queen, anyway. Obviously, in Azz's run, we saw the Amazons can have very quick funerals, when needed.



    As far as we know, there is no new God of the Dead, yet. Only Hades could restore the dead to life. Hades is either dead or badly injured and in need of recovery. Easy enough to suggest that there's no one Diana CAN talk to about bringing Hippolyta back, right now.



    This plays into my theory that Diana's personality is being affected in some way.



    Aren't you among the fans demanding that the rest of the League just disappear in a puff of smoke in this book? Never to return?

    Maybe they have expressed their condolences. Once again? How important is that to the story?



    I'll admit, that one doesn't make much sense.



    Don't know. Don't care. I'm just glad to have Donna back.



    Because the title of "God of War" didn't come with an instruction manual and a list of all available assets?



    Because someone else has usurped control over them? Two other gods involved in this story so far, I remind you. One of whom was VERY close to Ares.

    Maybe Diana hasn't yet fully solidified her power as God of War, and they don't yet recognize her authority until she proves herself worthy of commanding them?



    See above. They may be controlled by another force. They are attacking Themiscyra to further stir up the Amazon's resentment of Diana.

    It may even be a lie that the beasties are looking for her at all.

    I'm not saying that 'all these questions pertain to her behavior,' I'm saying that the writer has a pattern of writing things that don't make much sense, so it's hard for me to go assuming that there is some sort of rationale behind Diana's behavior when there is no rationale for many of these other issues.

    The JL are all being written as unsympathetic. We get two pages of her talking to Aquaman. Multiple pages of her talking to Batman. Several pages of her with Superman. A couple with her and the other JL members. Not once does a single JL member say 'I'm sorry to hear about your mother' or address her death in any way, shape or form.

    This, to me is way out of character for the JL, especially for her boyfriend, but there's no reason given. They are being written, imo, very much out of character.

    To me, so is Diana, and unless there are reasons for the myriad other questions that have arisen in these few issues, I have no reason to believe there's a reason that Diana is an emotional basket case other than she is being poorly written by someone who admittedly doesn't know much of the character.

    She created a ruling council to handle the government in her stead. She clearly thought her people could govern themselves. Seems like she gave them far too much credit. That's a fairly standard Wonder Woman flaw, right? Believing people are better than they are?



    And all these questions had nothing to do with Diana's uncharacteristic behavior.

    I was addressing her violent tendencies and her belief that she's supposed to be this way. I was addressing the issue of Hippolyta's ghost. Those are the big issues. Most of the rest of these questions of yours can be chalked up to either "Not important to the story being told," or "Not the best writing ever."
    First - I'm absolutely *not* one of the fans who want the JL to exit. What I want, however, is the JL to look to Diana for answers and leadership in her own book. I don't want them there to explain things to her or do things for her. Her book. She should have a more important status in the JL-related storyline.

    Now I have a lot of problems with your answers...

    'Easy enough to say...'

    'Don't know...'

    'There may have been...'

    'Maybe...'

    And a couple of question marks at the end of your sentences.

    Every one of your answers is a guess as you're trying to fill in the blanks in Meredith's storyline.

    You're making up reasons that Meredith hasn't bothered to show us; blind speculation with nothing in the book to support it.

    And the death of the 3000 year old only-Queen-ever of the Amazon nation would not be a fast thing. To me, if someone murdered my mother, that would be a pretty important issue to deal with, and her funeral should be a key moment in Wonder Woman's history.

    Imagine the parent of any other superhero being murdered in the DCU, yet not only is this murder largely unremarked upon, there is no funeral, no sympathy from guest stars and no one questioning how they died.

    Very nonsensical to me.

    And I get that she created a council, but that council has already told her they want/need her to be here; they put an ultimatum to her first thing out of the box, so she *knows* there are problems. The council isn't working, so...let's spend time chatting with Batman, 'cause they have time to kill?

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