[SPOILERS] Incursion theories

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Apparently, universes are destroyed only when 1) sometimes when the use of a universal nullifier interferes with the universe's big bang, causing the universe's premature death and 2) universes that have Earths collide with each other and both are destroyed.

When an Earth is destroyed during an incursion, NEITHER universes are destroyed. In addition, universes that no longer have Earths no longer suffer incursions and can't be destroyed during them, BUT will still be destroyed when the multiverse itself dies.

So Black Swan is accelerating incursions but by destroying the Earths she is saving the universes. So Rabum Alal wants the multiverse to still exist but either wants all Earths removed or only one Earth to remain. Or perhaps the goal is to get rid of heroes who are not willing to destroy other Earths to save their own universe, or to get rid of a specific Earther. It's all speculation.

[TheObsessor]

just wondering why you put spoilers in your subject line when in fact these are theories/guesses

Because plot points from several series were spoiled. Linking them together in a specific way is conjecture, but all the quotes etc were canon.

[DrTraveler]

Apparently, universes are destroyed only when 1) sometimes when the use of a universal nullifier interferes with the universe's big bang, causing the universe's premature death and 2) universes that have Earths collide with each other and both are destroyed.

When an Earth is destroyed during an incursion, NEITHER universes are destroyed. In addition, universes that no longer have Earths no longer suffer incursions and can't be destroyed during them, BUT will still be destroyed when the multiverse itself dies.

So Black Swan is accelerating incursions but by destroying the Earths she is saving the universes. So Rabum Alal wants the multiverse to still exist but either wants all Earths removed or only one Earth to remain. Or perhaps the goal is to get rid of heroes who are not willing to destroy other Earths to save their own universe, or to get rid of a specific Earther. It's all speculation.

This seems to hint a connection with why Galactus won't destroy Earth, as referenced in Fantastic Four 600. Without going into spoilers, Galactus hints destroying Earth causes things to end faster. As all Earth-less universes are dead by this point in Hickman's run, it shows the futility of destroying Earth as a means of saving everything.

[krazijoe]

It's the Beyonder...He's not content anymore.

[SpiderOrange]

Ok so it kind of depends the device whether they travel through time in the same universe or in a different universe. In Infinite Avengers for instance, Rogers, Stark and the other Avengers are travelling via the Time Gem. Since the Infinity Gems only work within its universe, its actually moving them through the 616 timeline, not moving them to a different multiverse. Since it seems what will happen is that all the multiverses have collapsed into a single universe, it means that after the final incursion (between 616 and 1610 [Ultimate Universe]) the only time travel devices that will work are ones like the Time Gem or the Worldcore singularity. Devices that travel to a different multiverse will not work because there are no other multiverses to travel to.

In the case of the O5, Beast wanted to bring younger versions of the original X-Men forward in time. So by taking the young X-men to the future, there then exists a universe where the young X-Men were abducted by 616 Beast and never returned. This is just like AoA is a universe where Xaviar died and Magneto formed the X-Men. Now I'm not sure if Bendis is exactly playing by these rules because he did that Back to the Future thing where old Cyclops started to fade when young Cyclops was in danger of dying, but if he had really taken the young Cyclops from the 616 timeline that should have changed the entire timeline.

Another interesting example from Hickman's Fantastic Four run is Nathaniel Richards. Nathaniel killed every other Nathaniel Richards that ever existed in all other multiverses, so he became a multiversal constant. So no matter whan happens in the past or future,it wont affect him. According to Franklin this is why he can survive the revision wave.

The last example to look at is Forever (SPOILER: don't read this if you haven't read Forever yet). Reed Richards should have been killed by Mad Celestials, but Future Franklin and Valeria found a way to save him. This created a revision wave that changed the 616 future. Franklin knew that Nathaniel would survive it because he was the only Nathaniel that now exists, but he and Valeria had to escape the wave or it they would no longer exist once the wave caught up to them.

I'm not exactly sure how AoU worked, since they time traveled using a Doom time elevator. Canonically this should travel within the 616 timeline since Doom knows to engineer time machines with the right particles (this is from X-Factor).

Anyway, you can appreciate why there are some powerful beings that want the multiverse to collapse into a single universe, making time easier to control.

Ok, this definitely relates to what I was asking. That makes things a bit easier to understand. Thank you!

[SidheKnight]

Wow, just.. wow.

I congratulate you for this amazing job. Whether this all turns out accurate, we'll find out soon enough.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

I ran into a snag writing up the Infinite Avengers timeloop. Hopefully someone knows the answer.

In Avengers #24 (Rogue Planet #1), Stark claims that Rhodey Stark is an AI:

TONY STARK: 3030. Post- Singularity. Maybe you look like a man, but you're not one at all.. you are an artificial intelligence yourself, aren't you?

Originally I thought it was just Stark flirting, but its clear now that he is referring to the 2435 Ultron Singularity that the Time Gem takes them to in Avengers #31 (and that I just googled is going to be the story in April's Ultron Forever mini). The problem is, how does Stark have knowledge of this future timeline?

It doesn't make sense that Rhodey told him. After she anchors the rogue planet and gives Tony the Battleworld plans, she runs out of time and fades away. This implies her actions have changed the timeline; it's now a timeline where Tony doesn't have a granddaughter (possibly because Rogers kills him) so she no longer exists. So the Ultron Singularity shouldn't exist in her timeline (although I suppose she can know "of" it since the two timelines are at war with each other). Also it would be strange to have this so off panel.

Does Tony know the Ultron Singularity from something earlier that I missed?

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Some very interesting ideas and connections here. Good job on the research.

I don't know if it will have anything to do with Remender's Secret Avengers, though, or with Captain Marvel accessing her binary powers. I feel like so much of Hickman's work is interconnected that there is no need to look outside of it for much.

I would be inclined to agree, except Secret Avengers completely seems to be story seeding for Hickman's Avengers run, especially once Unworthy Thor tells Thor about the rise of the Descendants causing Planet Ultron in Avengers #31. Also Warren Ellis wrote many issues on the run as well, and we know Hickman doesn't mind picking up Ellis ideas. Secret Avengers is kind of a continuation of Secret Warriors (under a different writer).

The other possibility is that the event happens in Hickman's Ultimate Comics: Ultimates, especially since issue #8 was published in the acceptable timeframe. There are three possible catastrophic events: the destruction of Ultimate Asgard's world tree, Zorn unleashing the singularity to destroy the Childrens' ship, and the anti-matter bomb that Ultimate Reed gives Death to destroy Washington DC. There are two problems with that though; first, none of these events would cause the early death of another universe, and second, if the Event happened in the Ultimate universe, it would be the event that Sue Kang refers to, so the time is completely off.
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[jphamlore]

if it's Ultron than Hank has to play a big role

Not with the rumor that Tony Stark in the Avengers movie will be the one who creates Ultron ...

And it would be hilarious if Hickman read some of the older classic Ultron stories and decided to go with the black and white Black Swan patterns as a homage to the creepy robotic nuns who were running the monastery that was one of Ultron's bases:

http://uncannyxmen.net/comics/issue/...1st-series-171

[TheObsessor]

Not with the rumor that Tony Stark in the Avengers movie will be the one who creates Ultron ...

And it would be hilarious if Hickman read some of the older classic Ultron stories and decided to go with the black and white Black Swan patterns as a homage to the creepy robotic nuns who were running the monastery that was one of Ultron's bases:

http://uncannyxmen.net/comics/issue/...1st-series-171

Not even a rumor anymore, I believe it's been confirmed (although Banner may have had a hand in it? Science bros and all).

[Rosebunse]

Damn, this is some research!

Not sure if I agree with all of it, but it's amazing!

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Another clue that could support the theory that the cause was Carol Danvers destroying a new universe:

In All-New X-Men #25, Uatu accuses Beast of a horrendous crime against the universe:

UATU: I came here to tell you... because of you NONE of these things will ever happen. A myriad of realities you have destroyed, Dr. McCoy.
UATU: I am the Watcher. And I do not act. And you DISGUST me, Hank McCoy.

At first they discuss Beast bringing the O5 into the present, so it seems like this is what Uatu blames Beast for. But Uatu never directly says that was Beast's big mistake. Bringing the O5 into the future doesn't seem like it would have the consequence of destroying infinite realities. I think O5 is a red herring and it sounds very much like a hint that Beast is the cause of the multiversal collapse. Which could be since the plan to use Ms. Marvel as a Universal Nullifier was his idea.

[Rosebunse]

So...it was all Beast's fault?

[vitruvian]

Another clue that could support the theory that the cause was Carol Danvers destroying a new universe:

In All-New X-Men #25, Uatu accuses Beast of a horrendous crime against the universe:

UATU: I came here to tell you... because of you NONE of these things will ever happen. A myriad of realities you have destroyed, Dr. McCoy.
UATU: I am the Watcher. And I do not act. And you DISGUST me, Hank McCoy.

At first they discuss Beast bringing the O5 into the present, so it seems like this is what Uatu blames Beast for. But Uatu never directly says that was Beast's big mistake. Bringing the O5 into the future doesn't seem like it would have the consequence of destroying infinite realities. I think O5 is a red herring and it sounds very much like a hint that Beast is the cause of the multiversal collapse. Which could be since the plan to use Ms. Marvel as a Universal Nullifier was his idea.

Except that risked the destruction of a newly forming universe, which would not have an Earth since the Earth formed billions and billions of years after the Big Bang, and Reed identified the cause as having happened on an alternate Earth specifically, therefore the Incursion points always being two Earths.

And of course even if this is what he was on about, it was Uatu who first let Earthlings even know such a thing as the Ultimate Nullifier existed....

[hawkeyefan]

I would be inclined to agree, except Secret Avengers completely seems to be story seeding for Hickman's Avengers run, especially once Unworthy Thor tells Thor about the rise of the Descendants causing Planet Ultron in Avengers #31. Also Warren Ellis wrote many issues on the run as well, and we know Hickman doesn't mind picking up Ellis ideas. Secret Avengers is kind of a continuation of Secret Warriors (under a different writer).

The other possibility is that the event happens in Hickman's Ultimate Comics: Ultimates, especially since issue #8 was published in the acceptable timeframe. There are three possible catastrophic events: the destruction of Ultimate Asgard's world tree, Zorn unleashing the singularity to destroy the Childrens' ship, and the anti-matter bomb that Ultimate Reed gives Death to destroy Washington DC. There are two problems with that though; first, none of these events would cause the early death of another universe, and second, if the Event happened in the Ultimate universe, it would be the event that Sue Kang refers to, so the time is completely off.
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Fair point on Hickman not minding using Ellis's ideas. Same could be true for Remender. We'll see. Either way, your research and the way you summarized your theories was very impressive. I don't think I stressed that enough in my earlier post.

The Ultimate Universe stuff I'm not as familiar with. I do have one question for you: why do you think that the publishing timeframe of the stories must match? Especially if we're talking about events in two different universes. I don't think you need to narrow it down by when the events occurred in our time, know what I mean?