[SPOILERS] Incursion theories

[RandyMcDonald]

Xaviar and Raze come from the 616 future, so they are returned to the 616 future which still exists. Remember that the Jean Grey they have with them is the O5 Jean Grey that never returned to the past. So they aren't coming from the timeline that Beast took the O5 X-Men from. The O5 X-Men couldn't be sent back to the Earth they came from (which was destroyed in the 2nd Incursion), but Raze could be send to the future because that is still 616 and still exists.

You misunderstand. In Uncanny X-Men #13, while the Original Five could not be sent back into their native time in the past using the time cube, Raze could travel back to their past. (He stated that he spent three minutes there and saw Xavier.) Based on the BOTA description, the O5's native time wasn't inaccessible. Rather, the O5 were being specifically prevented from returning.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

I think it's most likely that all things will lead to Reed and/or Doom. These characters have been the centerpiece of Hickman's Marvel tenure.
I don't think he'll reach to his S.H.I.E.L.D. run for the main villain like Newton as it'll be a bit too obscure even for a story that brought in the Beyonders. Oblivion is a good theory to be one entity with at least a large part (as in something to gain) in the story. I honestly think, though for a tie in continuity standpoint that the whole Black Celestial Saga would be a perfect fit. If in one such scenario there is a runaway Galactus feeding on the universes being manipulated by another entity like Oblivion, and/or The Beyonder, and/or The Beyonders, Reed would tie directly into this story not just in terms of The Black Celestial Saga, but in terms of Reed, Dr. Strange and the Avengers stopping Galactus in the story that created the Galactus from The Black Celestial Saga (thus tying in other members of the Illuminati as well), with Reed being the centerpiece. The eventual absorption and then rebirth of the universe by Galactus is a big part of the lore of cosmic Marvel. Hickman even had Galactus and Franklin as the last two entities to exist at the end of time, so he may even make Franklin the new Galactus post-Battleworld (which would also mesh well with the lore of the Earth X alternate reality). The Black Celestial Saga even ended with a nullified reality/universe (via The Ultimate Nullifier) that became a blank empty universe, a similar nullified universe was later visited by alternate versions of Dr. Strange, Phoenix, and The Silver Surfer showing it to be an empty space (without space) that can be "visited", a similarly empty blank white universe also being the space The Beyonder manifested to when the cube energy leaked from his home cosmic cube reality (and such a universe is currently being visited by Dr. Doom and The Molecule Man). How this tied into the Infinity Gems shattering I'm not quite sure (perhaps dealing with alternate gems' use in the creation of another universe in another empty space in another Hickman story).
The problem with this theory would be a lack of hints to that specific story and the recent inclusion of Galactus and the Celestials in the montage of characters seeing ways to stop the Incursions, while giving no hints as to those characters having anything to do with the story (just them disappearing for no reason). There's also been no use of The Silver Surfer so far either outside of that digital comic during Infinity. There is however a possible hint with Terrax being a part of The Cabal, and an alternate Galactus being used to stop an incursion by Eating an alternate Earth. How the clash of Earths in the incursions and the 616 reality being the centerpiece tie in to the absorption theory, I cannot say; I have ideas, but I don't know if that's what Hickman would think up (maybe, maybe not). There are just so many Reed and FF stories involving Galactus (others off the top of my head being Ultimate Galactus and The Abraxas Saga) that could make this make sense, but my ideas never really come to fruition in the comics.
I really hope there's a strong tie to a cool story from Marvel's past like this and not just some tie in to more recent stories like Shield or Avengers vs. X-Men. If it is a tie in to a past story I doubt it'd be something too obscure like the New Universe or something so heavily retconned (and major pieces of those retcons already referencedwithin the story) in The Beyonder. If The Beyonder does have something to do with it I'd bet on him being the manipulator rather than the power behind the cause (Dr. Doom using Galactus' absorption technology to absorb the Beyonders' power thus giving The Beyonder an idea about using a Galactus as a weapon being another way that could tie this nicely into The Black Celestial Saga, Reed, and Dr. Doom).

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Fascinating thread...I admit to not having read the entire series, but this thread has really piqued my interest (I employ a similar storytelling style in the writing I do on the net). If I understand correctly--beings like the original Human Torch actually have their origins in something much bigger and grander in scale? I always found it difficult to swallow that such a complex android could be built in 1939 (though I love the concept, he's my favorite Marvel character).

A lot of this was developed by Remender in Secret Avengers v1. Post WW2, the Western powers tried to duplicate the powers of Torch and Captain America; this was the founding of the Weapon Plus programs that eventually produced Wolverine (Weapon X, or the 10th successful version of the super soldier program). However, the program never successfully duplicated either Erksine's Super Soldier serum (which Erksine based off of the original super soldier John Steele), nor were they able to duplicate the android technology Phineas Horton invented to give The Torch true life. Instead, James Braddock stole the Orb of Necromancy from Merlyn to give Weapon Plus androids such as Life Model Decoys life using magic. But all of the artificial and cybernetic beings in the current time are descendants of the Torch technology- that's why they call themselves the Descendants- this ties with Battleworld because Unworthy Thor basically tells Thor in the Infinite Avengers storyline that Planet Ultron is the result of the Descendants taking over.

If you are a Torch fan, you check out that entire storyline (Secret Avengers v1 #22-25, 33-37). There was also a Torch storyline in Brubaker's Captain America run.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

How this tied into the Infinity Gems shattering I'm not quite sure (perhaps dealing with alternate gems' use in the creation of another universe in another empty space in another Hickman story).

The Gems shattered because Captain America used all six gems together at once. The Living Tribunal (I think) had forbidden the gems from being used together.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

You misunderstand. In Uncanny X-Men #13, while the Original Five could not be sent back into their native time in the past using the time cube, Raze could travel back to their past. (He stated that he spent three minutes there and saw Xavier.) Based on the BOTA description, the O5's native time wasn't inaccessible. Rather, the O5 were being specifically prevented from returning.

Ah. I'd forgotten/ repressed this part!

I hate when Bendis does time travel

If Raze could go back to the past, then Raze should go back and kill Beast before Beast can bring the O5 X-Men to the present, solving everything...

[chaosfist]

Other than Ultimates, Secret Warriors, Fantastic Four, and FF, my reading of most of these comics has been minimal and I'm not looking forward to Secret War at all, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading your theories of the incursions. It's damned impressive that you were able to parse the relevant data from all of these different issues. Are you a fast reader? This was really great fun to read. I'm looking forward to applying what you've included here with the way things play out. And the subsequent posts from other members have been fun too so thank you for posting this ..er.. post!

Also, I got a good laugh out of how after you reread over a hundred issues, quoted, analyzed, and theorized relevant snippets of writings within them, and typed it all up to in a document so long it had to be done in multiple posts solely for discussion on this forum, that somebody still had to post a single sentence correcting you on one minor naming error. And it wasn't even your error since it was in the actual book. Good stuff.

That one sentence demonstrates that the Great Destroyer can't be an Ebony King as there isn't any such thing. It was the first thing that came to mind when I read the OP too. I don't think it was meant to be insulting just a germaine part of the conversation. As for the rest I really enjoyed reading it and I've brought up many of the same points in past conversations. The worldcore is most definitely related to the incursions.

[SickAlice]

Ah. I'd forgotten/ repressed this part!

I hate when Bendis does time travel

If Raze could go back to the past, then Raze should go back and kill Beast before Beast can bring the O5 X-Men to the present, solving everything...

But then Beast never exists and never brings the O5 to the present and Raze never travels back to stop this then Beast still exists and brings the O5 to the present and...snowflake becomes blizzard.

[RandyMcDonald]

Ah. I'd forgotten/ repressed this part!

I hate when Bendis does time travel

If Raze could go back to the past, then Raze should go back and kill Beast before Beast can bring the O5 X-Men to the present, solving everything...

Or we could say that Raze is not a reliable narrator. Who knows?

[fin5]

I know this is a long shot but do you think the Phoenix force has sometine to do with this
At the end of AvX wanda and Hope said No More Phoenix Force.Phoenix is life and Death right. Earler in the post or in the Beginning the op said this happened before ff 18-20.
AVX ending in 2012 and ff 18-20 is 2013.The Avengers/New Avengers started in 2013 right.This might be not true and a long shot but I just thought of this

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

I know this is a long shot but do you think the Phoenix force has sometine to do with this
At the end of AvX wanda and Hope said No More Phoenix Force.Phoenix is life and Death right. Earler in the post or in the Beginning the op said this happened before ff 18-20.
AVX ending in 2012 and ff 18-20 is 2013.The Avengers/New Avengers started in 2013 right.This might be not true and a long shot but I just thought of this

There are still a lot of unresolved questions leftover from AvX such as the relationship between Phoenix and Kunlun, and the frame of Captain Marvel's body sprouting life. I think Phoenix is definitely a part of the endgame.

The timing of it in terms of issues published is that FF #16 happens at the same time as the Descendants storyline (when Beast might have been LMD'd), so AvX began a month or so later.

Another solution would be getting Wanda to say "No more Hanks."

[Tazpocalapse]

I wonder do the earts that were destroyed in UA factor in to the number of earths that have been destroyed during the incursions?

[davew128]

I think Remender's Deathloks are going to be a part of the endgame, and possibly Kang, possibly Fantomex, possibly elements from the Otherworld story. Hopefully the Twins will be back as well.

I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but we have had three Darwin bubbles now: The World (where Fantomex was made, also where AI research was conducted by Brian Bradock's father James to recreate The Torch's technology), Archangel's Tabula Rasa, and Ultimate Reed's City of Children.

Wasn't there a similar Darwin bubble in FF 293-295???

[davew128]

The Gems shattered because Captain America used all six gems together at once. The Living Tribunal (I think) had forbidden the gems from being used together.

While I agree LT decreed they couldn't be used at once, that just meant they shouldn't work. As a practical matter, the mind and soul gems wouldn't necessarily be activated or needed as part of a time/space issue like an incursion.

[LordUltimus]

The Gems shattered because Captain America used all six gems together at once. The Living Tribunal (I think) had forbidden the gems from being used together.

I think that got repealed at some point. I have to check.

[vitruvian]

Black Swan serves Rabum Alal and we know Rabum Alal is the Great Destroyer who caused the collapse of the universe to begin. Do we have any evidence that he (it?) is still alive?

We know Rabum Alal started the great destruction process, but logically, to survive it, he either had to do so from outside his universe or do it from within and be capable of surviving the destruction of his universe. Since we know the destruction started on Earth, it's likely he had to be in that universe and on Earth, though not impossible that he destroyed it from the area outside his universe.

What if the Swans are continuing the work of Rabum Alal, who started the great destruction and died doing so?

Hyperion survived the destruction of his home universe, and it seems unlikely that the Great Destroyer is/was any less tough than Hyperion.