Toxin Appreciation!! (Carnage's son and Venom's grandson)

[Darthfury78]

I think that the Toxin Symbiote could have been better served on Julia Carpenter instead of Eddie Brook as it might have been able to help her out of her coma state. Imagine if Julia Carpenter was Toxin who would be similar to its first introduction, but with color pattern of Julia's original Spider-Costume, but the original while boots and sleeves would be red and the rest black?

[Pav]

I think that the Toxin Symbiote could have been better served on Julia Carpenter instead of Eddie Brook as it might have been able to help her out of her coma state. Imagine if Julia Carpenter was Toxin who would be similar to its first introduction, but with color pattern of Julia's original Spider-Costume, but the original while boots and sleeves would be red and the rest black?

Not a bad idea, Darth. But I'll up the ante:

How about the Toxin symbiote bonded to Rachel Carpenter?

Some possibilities there for compelling stories, I think.

-Pav, who likes it the more he thinks about it...

[Darthfury78]

Not a bad idea, Darth. But I'll up the ante:

How about the Toxin symbiote bonded to Rachel Carpenter?

Some possibilities there for compelling stories, I think.

-Pav, who likes it the more he thinks about it...

I think that the Toxin symbiote could help Julia to come out of her induced coma. Imagine Madam Web bonded to Toxin? As for her daughter: I think that there are way too many new Spider-characters as it is: Spider-Gwen and Silk, for example. How convenient that Spider-Gwen and Silk has easily overshadow Jessica Drew's solo book, as well as Marvel's decision to give her a terrible costume in contrast to Silk and Spider-Gwen. And how ironic that both Silk and Spider-Gwen are strongly tied to Spider-Man instead of Jessica Drew.

[Pav]

I think that the Toxin symbiote could help Julia to come out of her induced coma. Imagine Madam Web bonded to Toxin? As for her daughter: I think that there are way too many new Spider-characters as it is: Spider-Gwen and Silk, for example. How convenient that Spider-Gwen and Silk has easily overshadow Jessica Drew's solo book, as well as Marvel's decision to give her a terrible costume in contrast to Silk and Spider-Gwen. And how ironic that both Silk and Spider-Gwen are strongly tied to Spider-Man instead of Jessica Drew.

It's not ironic: it's just how history has played itself out. The character of Gwen will always be tied to Spidey, and I don't think an examination of that fact is necessary. Silk has retroactively been linked to the origin of Spidey; I don't particularly like that, but for better or worse, she is now tied in closely with Spidey. On the other hand, Jessica Drew could hypothetically exist without the existence of Peter Parker. I get that she came into being as a reaction to trademark stuff, but her connections to Peter and to Spidey are tenable: her origin isn't linked to his (in comic), nor has a relationship as close as Peter and Gwen's ever been developed by the writers. I get that they have a relationship, and that you can point to specific issues and panels and say, "But look...!" But those are exceptions, not the rule. Historically, Jessica Drew and Peter Parker don't have much of a relationship, personal or otherwise.

I like that the development of their relationship seems to be a point of emphasis with some current writers, though.

As for the Toxin symbiote and Rachel Carpenter, I guess I just like the idea of a little girl being bonded to a symbiote portrayed as "young" in its former appearances. Like, they'd be best pals growing up together, and then you have "their" mom with her psychic powers to sometimes complicate the mother-daughter relationship.

Or something. I just thought of it today, so it's an underdeveloped idea so far. Regardless, I don't think giving Madame Webb a symbiote makes her any more compelling than she already is. I'd rather her see her raising her now-powered daughter.

She might be redundant considering the existence of Mania, but I find a Rachel-as-Toxin with Mommy Webb storyline more interesting than a Mania one.

-Pav, who has nothing against Mania though...

[Shockdingo]

I think in general there needs to be an ongoing book or a mini or SOMETHING dealing with the remaining symbiotes that aren't Carnage. There's too many characters in limbo that need another push. That was one of the few reason I was looking forward a Venom movie before the Marvel deal, I felt it would affect te comics by inspiring them to do more with the symbiotes to build hype for the inevitable crossover of movie fans picking up the books.

[Venomous Mask]

While I agree Anti-Venom had a good send off, I feel that Brock could have sustained that direction for years to come under the right writer (give our symbiote boy some challenges!). It would involve adding on a supporting cast, namely Jenna and others. I noticed that through the years May (not knowing better) has always been sweet on Brock. I was hoping he would join Pete's supporting cast after New Ways To Live and the fantastic burying of the grudge. I was hoping he'd once again become a defender of the homeless.

I do agree with you that Jenna should have been kept around though to be honest, I don't like her very much as she seems to take advantage of Brock's kindness and never tried to clean herself. When you say May, do you mean Aunt May? She found out that he was bad in ASM #332 while watching the news and responded with the hilarious comment "Oh dear, that's Peter's friend. I wonder if he knows the man's a criminal?"

I'm a broken record when it comes to this issue and others, but I feel that the healing aspect of Anti-Venom was the most potentially successful aspect for Brock's new direction. It gave him a new lease on life and a way to do extra good while between adventures. Things didn't 100% work with Jenna, but, like in Spider Island, him healing others and not always violently dispatching things would work well with his redemption angle and even open up new areas if for instance he went back to San Francisco.

The healing angle was a clever one although to be honest, a regular symbiote can be used to do the same thing (he used the Venom symbiote to heal Ann Weying). Maybe it's just me, but regardless of his powers, I was just increasingly finding Anti-Venom dull and was glad when Brock became Toxin. Still, he probably has a few of the Anti-Venom cells in his body so that suit might be able to come back.

I've also said this in multiple places, but killing off Ann was a huge mistake and amounted to another shoddy way to artificially extend Brock's hatred of Pete. I would have written it as though she had survived, but was rendered comatose, and upon her awakening she found out she, tragically had become crippled. Through this, she would raise herself up and not only get her career back, but move past the PTSD she had from being bonded and separated from the Symbiote for so long.

This is a much better storyline than what happened; even the fight scene was lame. You have to remember that this was a doldrums period for Spider-Man comics and that boring, pointless stories abounded. Mirror, Mirror could have been salvaged if it had been followed up with an epic Venom revenge plot but instead the symbiote gets ripped off Brock by the cotton candy monster Senator Ward that I don't remember anyone caring much about.

Brock would then be declared the hero of Spider Island and complications would arise with them crossing eachother's path. Also temptation would arise and she would struggle to see if she really wanted his help again. Ultimately she would refuse and they would have a prickly, but respectful friendship. (Also, you could bring back the Jury to be fantastic foils to Brock, being disgusted that a killer like him is declared the hero of New York)

Again good ideas. Remember that Ann's death was written by Howard Mackie who wrote the horrible Separation Anxiety miniseries a few years before (at least the video game was cool).

I too am sad that we never got to see what else was planned for Broxin. There were the Remender plans we never got light shed on, the Spawning and Bunn's recently revealed War of the Symbiote storylines. With Remender, I felt he was hinting at something big and a bit spooky with Brock (maybe Anti-Venom returning, maybe something else). In the "symbiote hunter" issues he seemed to have subtle superhuman abilities:

I really don't understand why that series was cancelled. The Superior Venom arc could have been woven into the Venom series easily as Spider Island had been. While I do think that his stint with GotG could give some new life to the character, Bendis' boring style of writing is dragging the whole series down.

-Despite losing his AV suit (which, like any medical procedure, should have left him weakened for a bit) he was keeping up with Hybrid in the rain--leaping from buildingtop to buildingtop. Even Frank Castle around Civil War noted that he couldn't constantly do this due to the pain that was generated in his knees from landing each time. He wondered how people like Daredevil constantly do this.

Part of this was probably due to Brock's Olympic level strength. Back in the 90s, he was doing crazy things like beating up whole squads of soldiers and knocking out other symbiotes with his bare fists. Also, remember that he specifically ambushed Hybrid; I'm not sure if there had been a long chase.

-He got the metaphorical drop on Scream, then literally dropped down from the ceiling and appeared to have used webbing to get the heated knives

He was probably hiding in the rafters though I've never been able to understand the webbing. You might have something there.

-In the panel he killed her, I thought it was just the typical artistic renditioning of a character with whited out eyes, but in another panel, as we got closer, Brock had gray sclera and whited out pupils and irises. Something bizarre was supposed to happen, but we never saw it.

The white eyes were strange. It's possible that the combination of the remaining Anti-Venom cells coupled with new fragments of the Venom symbiote from when it briefly rebonded to Brock in Spider Island brought on this transformation.

I remember when Bunn got on the book there was talk of Brock having an Obi-Wan connection with Flash.

That is reminiscent of The Hunger where Spider-Man said that he and Venom shared a mental link (which pretty much went against all established canon up until then).

Regardless of if Brock remained a human or became Toxin, I would have liked to see him mentor Flash, and really help him discover a deeper connection with the symbiote. Now with the new direction GotG introduced, that seems impossible.

The mentoring would have been an interesting twist and Brock was going to do this with the Life Foundation symbiotes in Separation Anxiety when Scream went berserk (seriously, Mackie did not know what he was doing in that story).

Speaking of new direction, with the plethora of Carnage appearances lately, I'm disappointed that Brock hasn't shown up. All we've seen lately is the ambiguous cameo in Hobgolin#1 of an Anti-Venom (part of me hopes it was actually Brock hoping to kickstart his heroic return) and "Eddie Brock was right!" in the last issue of Axis Carnage.

The fact that there was never an Anti-Venom/Carnage fight is seriously disappointing. Considering that Carnage is fast becoming one of the stars the new MU, a Brock/Carnage confrontation should not be ruled out in the future as there is so much history between the two characters.

I hope Brock comes back soon. Recently Tom Brevoort responded to people wanting some of the Spider Verse characters to get their own ongoings. If I recall correctly, he said for those we want to see in the Spidey books, send in emails and let our voices be heard. I sent in a message, about Brock while back, so maybe some of us should ask for Brock to return from limbo?

Does he have a Twitter account? I might send him a message. If we're getting a Silk series of all things, we should get a Brock series.

I think in general there needs to be an ongoing book or a mini or SOMETHING dealing with the remaining symbiotes that aren't Carnage. There's too many characters in limbo that need another push. That was one of the few reason I was looking forward a Venom movie before the Marvel deal, I felt it would affect te comics by inspiring them to do more with the symbiotes to build hype for the inevitable crossover of movie fans picking up the books.

I had an idea for a Marvel event where Carnage somehow goes into space and unites the fractious symbiote factions (it's been stated before that they all hate each other) and creates a massive symbiote empire. Of course all of the heroes band together and bring it down but the remnant symbiote territory could make for an interesting cosmic setting for a series and could be a dumping ground for other symbiotes. As of this moment, the Life Foundation symbiotes are free since their hosts were killed in Deadpool vs. Carnage.

[Darthfury78]

On the other hand, Jessica Drew could hypothetically exist without the existence of Peter Parker. I get that she came into being as a reaction to trademark stuff, but her connections to Peter and to Spidey are tenable: her origin isn't linked to his (in comic), nor has a relationship as close as Peter and Gwen's ever been developed by the writers. I get that they have a relationship, and that you can point to specific issues and panels and say, "But look...!" But those are exceptions, not the rule. Historically, Jessica Drew and Peter Parker don't have much of a relationship, personal or otherwise.

I liked Jessica Drew in Peter's world not because of her Spider-Origins. But because her personality alongside Peter has the potential to become a great friendship in the same manner as Peter Parker and Felicia Hardy.

I think that the reason why we have not seen a development of Jessica's friendship with Peter is because of the lack of interest by the writers. Even Carol Danvers friendship with Peter Parker occurred in the pages of her 2nd Ms. Marvel series. The same could apply to Jessica's friendship with Peter Parker in the pages of her self titled Spider-Woman series. It's too bad that Kelly Sue Deconnick choose not to explore Carol's friendship with Peter in the same manner as Brian Reed had done whenever he appeared as a guest. In fact, Kelly Sue has not used Spider-Man at all as a guest in the recent Captain Marvel series.

The truth is that I didn't select Jessica Drew because she was Spider-Woman. I selected Jessica for Peter Parker because of her personality. not her Spider-Themed persona.

[Shockdingo]

One thing I really liked with Pat & Toxin was we really really got to see interaction with the symbiote. As much as I love Flash, I'm disappointed that we don't have more of the classic interaction that Brock, Pat & even at times Cletus had with their Others. I'm hoping that now the suit is purified, he'll talk to it more. I loved when Bunn had Flash talk to his suit near the end of the Agent Venom book. Just because a host & symbiote are bonded, it doesn't mean they always agree. Part of what was cool was seeing Brock disagree with the suit on certain concepts, celebrate in victory, or just shoot the breeze. I loved the teaching angle with Pat, it was like he was raising a child of his own, rather than being connected to a suit. I miss that.


Awesome responses, thanks for the conversation dude!

I do agree with you that Jenna should have been kept around though to be honest, I don't like her very much as she seems to take advantage of Brock's kindness and never tried to clean herself.

About Jenna, I can see your points, but I feel her character makes for an interesting dynamic with Brock. Brock saved her & they worked together to clean the streets, but in the New Ways to Live, she struggled with temptation secretly while Brock saw her as his angel. While the Punisher acted quite out of character (he hates the pushers, but has sympathy for the users who don't harm people) he represented the people who hate Brock and found him beyond help, while Brock's support of Jenna mirrored how he at times struggled with the temptation to do good, but would metaphorically fall off the wagon.

The fact that she was imperfect & that Brock was walking the razor's edge kind of made them have a social symbiosis (Heh). When he was around she struggled to keep it together & when she was there he was less willing to kill. I feel that their friendship could have been taken to different places and especially if things got to a point where there was a symbiote book, Jenna could talk to Mania about giving in to urges -- in this case, giving into the rage and violence of her corrupted symbiote.

When you say May, do you mean Aunt May? She found out that he was bad in ASM #332 while watching the news and responded with the hilarious comment "Oh dear, that's Peter's friend. I wonder if he knows the man's a criminal?"

Yup, I meant aunt May. That was a funny scene, but I found it interesting that it seems off panel she forgave him since around New Ways to Die, she knew who he was & had several interactions with him. When he first became Anti-Venom, she was upset with him due to the fight getting out of hand, but not in a "Aaah! Monster, get away!" way.

"Edward Brock! Of all the thoughtless...you're going to get someone killed! Is that What you want?!"

And later after New Ways to Die is wrapped up, Peter comes to check in on Aunt May, then there's this exchange:

May: "I'm fine. It's that poor Eddie Brock I'm worried about. Going through all those changes. Facing those nasty Thunderbolts. I hope he's all right."

Pete: You're worried about Eddie Brock? Aunt May, you're one in a Million."

For a long time I was surprised how many interactions Brock had with May, then something hit me. Brock had access to all Pete's memories, so obviously he could feel the love May showed Pete. Brock's mom died in childbirth, so Brock may see a motherly figure in May to a degree.

The healing angle was a clever one although to be honest, a regular symbiote can be used to do the same thing (he used the Venom symbiote to heal Ann Weying). Maybe it's just me, but regardless of his powers, I was just increasingly finding Anti-Venom dull and was glad when Brock became Toxin. Still, he probably has a few of the Anti-Venom cells in his body so that suit might be able to come back.

True the symbiote could heal others, but it was a risky move to heal someone it wasn't bonded with. Brock tried to extend some of it to heal her, but it was too slow and her pulse began to fade, thus he had to completely remove the suit. He stated "It's the only way to save her! Yes, I understand the torment of sundering our symbiotic relationship- but you can't refuse" it also caused major instability problems in Ann due to creating & breaking the bonds more than once.

I felt that the advantage of healing with the AV suit was that he could do it quickly, without consequence, and to many simultaneously. Online, someone pointed out in a discussion that also the healing may have represented the reemergence of his faith and presented itself as external response to heal and revitalize people.

While I think AV had years worth of stories left (especially with a stable supporting cast), I can understand how you may have felt it dull, the direction wasn't for everyone. I just really wish he was used more. I really liked seeing his rivalry with Mr. Negative come to ahead in The Return of Anti Venom.

This is a much better storyline than what happened; even the fight scene was lame. You have to remember that this was a doldrums period for Spider-Man comics and that boring, pointless stories abounded. Mirror, Mirror could have been salvaged if it had been followed up with an epic Venom revenge plot but instead the symbiote gets ripped off Brock by the cotton candy monster Senator Ward that I don't remember anyone caring much about.

Thanks for the kind words on my Ann ideas! Agreed, it was such a waste. I mostly forgot about Senator Ward until recently, yeeeah those were some...interesting years for the Spidey books hah. I wish I could ghost write for Marvel on a Brock book, hell, even if it was just signing over the rights to these ideas, I'd do it. I really feel like Brock can be brought back with success if a few careful details are worked on and the mistakes of the 90s minis are avoided (overexposure and constant writing team shifts left too many drastic changes in Brock's story so he lost cast members and plotpoints were dropped off).

Remember that Ann's death was written by Howard Mackie who wrote the horrible Separation Anxiety miniseries a few years before (at least the video game was cool).

Oh yeah, the game was pretty fun! Man, I miss the Life Foundation stuff, they, like The Jury are another concept which I felt had legs. Especially if they got absorbed into that company that made the tech symbiotes in the Carnage mini that introduced Scorn.

I really don't understand why that series was cancelled. The Superior Venom arc could have been woven into the Venom series easily as Spider Island had been. While I do think that his stint with GotG could give some new life to the character, Bendis' boring style of writing is dragging the whole series down.

Yeah, Agent Venom was a great book, even though some things were different towards the end, I loved the book so much. Agree with you on the Guardian's direction opening doors. Unfortunately, other than the third issue of the Planet Venom arc, Flash has been in the background and I don't think we'll get a chance to explore his changes since there's like a bunch of events going on now and Secret Wars is coming up.

Part of this was probably due to Brock's Olympic level strength. Back in the 90s, he was doing crazy things like beating up whole squads of soldiers and knocking out other symbiotes with his bare fists. Also, remember that he specifically ambushed Hybrid; I'm not sure if there had been a long chase. He was probably hiding in the rafters though I've never been able to understand the webbing. You might have something there.

Oh he ambushed Hybrid? I must have remembered things wrong oops, heh. Good point on the rafters for the Scream scene, at first I thought he was ambiguously hanging from the ceiling.

The mentoring would have been an interesting twist and Brock was going to do this with the Life Foundation symbiotes in Separation Anxiety when Scream went berserk (seriously, Mackie did not know what he was doing in that story).

Aye, so much lost potential with Separation Anxiety.

The fact that there was never an Anti-Venom/Carnage fight is seriously disappointing. Considering that Carnage is fast becoming one of the stars the new MU, a Brock/Carnage confrontation should not be ruled out in the future as there is so much history between the two characters.

Yeah, every time I saw Carnage, I kept expecting a panel with Eddie reacting or something. Part of me was hoping we'd get a symbiote book with several members coming together in a disgruntled group made by the inverted Carnage-Man, but since it looks like he's reverted, can't see that happening so I'll just have to wait for the next mini & cross my fingers.

Does he have a Twitter account? I might send him a message. If we're getting a Silk series of all things, we should get a Brock series.

Not sure about a twitter account, but I recall an article that said we should voice our demands by writing the Spidey offices at spideyoffice @ marvel. com That's what I ended up doing.

I had an idea for a Marvel event where Carnage somehow goes into space and unites the fractious symbiote factions (it's been stated before that they all hate each other) and creates a massive symbiote empire. Of course all of the heroes band together and bring it down but the remnant symbiote territory could make for an interesting cosmic setting for a series and could be a dumping ground for other symbiotes. As of this moment, the Life Foundation symbiotes are free since their hosts were killed in Deadpool vs. Carnage.

Whoa! I like the sound of a symbiote empire arc! That could be fun & tie Flash & the Guardians to it. Yeah, all the LF symbiotes are on that dog roaming somewhere. I wonder if we'll ever pick up that plotline?

[Kevin's Comics]

Why on earth will they kill Pat..? I mean, the fact that both the host an symbiote where having conflict make that character unique, different from all the Symbiote out there.. I hpe with the end of the Marvel Universe, Pat will be back to life in an other dimension or something. I like Eddie, but eddie with Toxin looks more like a Venom 2.0

[Darthfury78]

Why on earth will they kill Pat..? I mean, the fact that both the host an symbiote where having conflict make that character unique, different from all the Symbiote out there.. I hpe with the end of the Marvel Universe, Pat will be back to life in an other dimension or something. I like Eddie, but eddie with Toxin looks more like a Venom 2.0

I always felt that Eddie Brock + Toxin did not mesh well together. In fact, it is Vemon 2.0. I really wished that the Toxin symbiote was bonded to Julia Carpenter instead of Eddie Brock.