DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[Krypto's Fleas]

The best explanation on why Justice League's domestic opening was so low is that the BvS had already stolen the "novelty" factor for audiences of seeing the trinity together for the first time on the big screen and that film essentially played like a Justice League film would if it was released before, and Justice League just played like just another sequel to a movie that that made a buckload of money. So it was more of a fool me ounce shame on me, fool me twice shame on you" so a lot people just couldn't be bothered. To most audiences Justice League looked like the "Same ol' same ol'" and rejected it.

Imagine if Marvel did Civil War first before they did the first Avengers film does anybody really think the first Avengers film would still be the juggernaut that it was? Of course there are other factors to consider as well but for me this seems to be the most important reason.

While I think there are a few more items that got us here (brand damage, publicity and studio interference), I very much agree with your point about BvS blowing the load early and don't see enough people discussing that facet of this mess. I also wonder what impact not showing Superman in marketing had on it. It just never felt like Justice League.

[Flash Gordon]

Well DC literally has no where to go but upwards. You can't get much worse than what was in JL and you can't get much worse than fighting a left over CG character from the Hobbit Part 2.

They need to just double down and let some filmmakers make films. Let Aquaman be an AQUAMAN flick. Let these things breathe and see what happens. Don't cancel productions, and don't keep going in the same direction either.

Also, by God let someone make a SUPERMAN film.

[Flash Gordon]

Steppenwolf is clearly meant to pave the way, both figuratively and literally, for Darkseid.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah I imagine this was meant to be a part 1 and Darkseid would have shown up in part 2.

[batnbreakfast]

You don't have your JL come together because of an alien invasion when the other team (Marvel) already went there. If you do let me have a look at the actor under all that Steppenwolf gear because Parademons aren't pretty compelling villains by themselves. Its mindboggling how WB was able to get a great cast with actual chemistry together because beyond that they seemingly made every mistake there is.

[Buried Alien]

You don't have your JL come together because of an alien invasion when the other team (Marvel) already went there.

Marvel did a variation of the reason the Avengers first convened in the comics: LOKI. The Justice League was actually the first team to convene due to alien invasion, but if you were to go with the comics, it would be either White Martians, Appellaxians, or Starro.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Slowpokeking]

Steppenwolf is clearly meant to pave the way, both figuratively and literally, for Darkseid.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That's not necessary, they could have used Brainiac or White Martians and create some relations between them and Darkseid.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Marvel did a variation of the reason the Avengers first convened in the comics: LOKI. The Justice League was actually the first team to convene due to alien invasion, but if you were to go with the comics, it would be either White Martians, Appellaxians, or Starro.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

See I would have actually loved to see Starro as the main villain. They could have explored the whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" type invasion as opposed to the full on "War of the Worlds" type invasion that Avengers dealt with.

[Buried Alien]

See I would have actually loved to see Starro as the main villain. They could have explored the whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" type invasion as opposed to the full on "War of the Worlds" type invasion that Avengers dealt with.

They could even get their "evil Superman" fix if Starro were to temporarily possess Superman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ekrolo2]

That's not necessary, they could have used Brainiac or White Martians and create some relations between them and Darkseid.

I don't get what's wrong with using Steppenwolf and just reworking his various aspects to make him more interesting. He's kind of in a perfect spot where nobody really cares about him, nobody will make a fuss about most alterations you make to him (as long as he's connected to Darkseid you're good to go) so a creator can jump in, make him interesting on his own terms and not face blow back because "DUR CUMIX!".

[Slowpokeking]

I don't get what's wrong with using Steppenwolf and just reworking his various aspects to make him more interesting. He's kind of in a perfect spot where nobody really cares about him, nobody will make a fuss about most alterations you make to him (as long as he's connected to Darkseid you're good to go) so a creator can jump in, make him interesting on his own terms and not face blow back because "DUR CUMIX!".

Because DC got at least 20+ better villains than him to use.

[TooFlyToFail]

A teenager with superhuman abilities who is able to protect himself unlike the son who died as a civilian on the ground in Sokovia.



So what if Zemo's the villain? Yeah, he's the villain and therefore an important part of the story and what happened to him and his family is an important part of the story.

And T'Chaka is there to bring the BP mythos into the story, but that doesn't mean that he's not a very real casualty of the conflict.



Well, firstly, yeah they are. Zemo's opinion of heroes sure does seem to have a lot to do with the story. And Thunderbolt Ross, as the civilian who seemingly engages with the Avengers the most has a lot to say about it. But, again, giving the civilians a voice is a secondary issue. The primary issue is: was this movie a cohesive narrative? One of the films presented a very cohesive narrative. The other did not.



Yeah it did. We saw Steve and Tony clash for multiple films. In the first Avengers, they are seemingly at odds with one another, with Steve thinking Tony is nothing without his suit, irresponsible, and egotistical. Tony thinks Steve is a stick in the mud. In the second Avengers, Steve (and the other Avengers) are understandably upset with Tony for his help creating Ultron. The very fact that Tony created Ultron signals his growing comfort with the idea of a supranational monitoring force. And, of course, in Winter Soldier Steve is confronted with the fact that SHIELD (a governmental monitoring organization) is in fact being controlled by Hydra. That, of course, makes him suspicious of other groups coming in and trying to control his actions, like say the UN via the Accords. That specific development is even referenced in the film itself, when Falcon is surprised that Natasha is supporting the Accords.

So, yes, this conflict was developed and sprang from multiple threads that were present in previous movies.

1) The teenager thats a rookie, acts like a rookie, and treated like one. The teenager who is sent to fight Bucky, whom Stark sees as a killer. The teenager, whom Stark freaked out over him potentially getting injured after the fight.

2) Except he wasn't all that important, honestly. Zemo wasn't necessary to drive them apart, at all. He merely exacerbated it. If anything he degrades the conflict into something personal, which further makes the civilians not matter.

3) T'Chaka is only there to be BP's personal baggage to drives him into the conflict. His words on the political, and ethical, implications of the Avengers don't drive the plot, and aren't parts of the endgame. We never even hear BP's opinion on what his father said. Of course he ultimately sides with Cap, but that never was part of the original discussion. We also never see how it would affect him, as he was king/royalty.

4) Zemo's the villain, so yes he matters a bit, but he still ultimately didn't matter to the heroes. It was the heroes' personal grudges that mattered. Ross was never taken seriously by the Avengers. In BvS, the words of random people on the news, and people he interviews, constantly haunt, and color his actions, and demeanor. Unlike Cap, who straight up says the opinions of others don't matter because the world his best served by his. Yes, it a more cohesive movie, but it's also a simpler movie, and it makes a lot of the same mistakes BvS did.

5) In the first Avengers it was pretty shit, they squabbled over. Steve and Tony clash a bit in the sequel, but that's gone by end of the movie. After the Tower of Babylon, after Batman saved them from his machinations, they still voted him off the team, with only Superman understanding the mindset of Batman. At the end of AoU, there's no indication of a great rift coming. There's no hint of Hawkeye disliking Stark, for instance. There's no talk of what Wanda did, in manipulating Stark, and Banner, to hurt people.

Winter Soldier makes Steve's PoV clear, but AoU hints at Stark's. Ultron could also easily be looked at as Stark trying to finally retire, but in a way that he doesn't leave the world defenseless. If anything, CW is about Tony's guilt, rather than him really believing in the cause he fought for. In the comics, Stark was actively getting involved with government so that he could do this. MCU Stark is not nearlly as involved at all, nor does he take Ross seriously.

[Krypto's Fleas]

When the slate was announced a few years back I thought it would have made great sense to have Black Adam as the Loki of the DCEU for a few films. End credits introduce him in either BvS or SS, and have him as the main villain that unites the heroes in JL. He's a powerful but strategic enough villain where all alone, any member of the JL could be taken by surprise with him, and you could also have him leveraging other forces, thereby necessitating the JL's creation. From there it then opens the door to Shazam.

[Slowpokeking]

Also not sure is it spoiler or not.

I think Aquaman's ability is just not special on the land. Mera works better.

[TooFlyToFail]

None of these makes him a great villain, especially compare to all the big names DC got.

It makes him a layered villain for the movie. Comparing him to other villains i sent the point, it's about fleshing out his character.

Again, all you gotta do is think about it for more than a second.

[Slowpokeking]

It makes him a layered villain for the movie. Comparing him to other villains i sent the point, it's about fleshing out his character.

Again, all you gotta do is think about it for more than a second.

We don't need a layered villain. We need a badass villain to make this movie rock and roll, then create some links for the future.