DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[Kid A]

batman v superman is absolutely a mess, but there's a great film buried underneath the awkwardly paced and badly edited movie that we got, especially when you watch the extended cut. visually it's great and it's probably the most ambitious superhero comic book movie i've seen. i like to think it will be a cult classic in the future (which is weird since it did really well).

after getting pretty invested in the over-arching superman story between those two movies, i was pretty crushed at how justice league completely goes for a hollow marvelized soft reboot.

[Confuzzled]

Am I the only one who preferred BvS to JL? Superman's death and its aftermath in BvS felt forced and unearned, Snyder and co. were as usual clueless regarding how to utilize Lois, but Batman, Wonder Woman and yes, even Lex, really made the film overall enjoyable and captivating enough for me.

JL just felt hollow and a husk of a movie instead of an actual movie. I'll just pretend this was a prelude and that JL2 (if it happens and is good) will be the actual first Justice League film.

[Robotman]

So Johns is back to being the Chief Creative Officer and Berg has moved on to producing (which, according to the article, he’s been wanting to do for a while). Their run as the guiding force of the DCEU was incredibly short lived. Did they even get a year? Basically WB is punishing them for sticking with Snyder. Sounds like the higher ups wanted him gone after BvS but there were people fighting for him to stay (presumably Berg and Johns).

Since DC films may get absorbed into WB’s regular film division I’m super worried that they’ll go back to putting people in charge of DC superhero flicks that know nothing about the source material. Then we end up with movies like Catwoman and Batman & Robin. Just reminds me of Kevin Smith’s retelling of his experience with the Jon Peters, producer of the abandoned Superman Lives. He demanded that Superman fight a giant spider and that Brainiac have a stereotypical gay sidekick. Oy.

The bolding above is my feeling about every one of these films. WB has so much riding on them working out and with Snyder no longer in charge, which we know now they were VERY resistant to after BvS, which I imagine had a lot to do with the Frankensteining of Justice League, hopefully they have also learned the lesson to trust their directors and GTF out of the way. I wasn't happy with Snyder's DC movies. That's well known here by now (though I have a personal update on that topic to come in another post, sooner than later) but the WORST thing is to hire an artist and not let him do his job. If you're going to trust someone, you freaking trust them. You don't try to micromanage because it has never, to the best of my knowledge, improved a film sufficiently to make it a success in maybe all of film history. It never works to do that.

And it does seem like once Snyder is gone they'll be willing to do that. The now infamous Variety article made it pretty plain that WB's main problem was with Snyder which makes sense of the fact that they meddled so much in his movies but didn't meddle at all with, say, Patty Jenkins. I think the freakout over Suicide Squad that led to unsuccessful meddling was all about them freaking out about the critical failure of BvS. I think it shocked the heck out of them and, given they agreed to let him continue with JL after it (so as not to start over with so much spent on pre-production - the costly error of "throwing good money after bad"), they ought to have let him make his movie.

I'm a theatre director by trade as many know here by now because I've said it a lot to make various points about my POV but in theatre the auteur is the playwright, the writer. In film the auteur is the director. And if you hire an auteur director with a strong POV it never works to try to "manage" that. You can't do it effectively in theatre either but my point is that it's so much more true in film than in, for example, theatre.

At this point Snyder's just gone and there's no use in rehashing that. It's been done to death from all possible points of view. I just hope that WB has learned to get out of the way of their directors. I bolded the section of the post I quoted because that's it. That's the bottom line. Great creators make great movies (and plays and comics and all art). Period. Studio executives only know how to freak out about the latest thing that happened and interfere or opt to trust the directors they hire.

If they needed to mess with Snyder's JL, they just should have fired him and ate the money and started over. What they did instead hurt everyone involved. I deeply hope they've learned this one critical lesson. It will be the difference between us having good and successful DC movies and not having them.

It doesn’t sound like WB has learned anything. Martin Campbell, director of Green Lantern, stated that making that film was a nightmare because it was “directed by committee.” So many WB executives wanting to make changes and add their own ideas.
Jimmy Palmiotti once said he hates working in Hollywood because there are so many studio suits who need to justify their jobs. They all try to make suggestions to show that their jobs are important.

[Confuzzled]

So Johns is back to being the Chief Creative Officer and Berg has moved on to producing (which, according to the article, he’s been wanting to do for a while). Their run as the guiding force of the DCEU was incredibly short lived. Did they even get a year? Basically WB is punishing them for sticking with Snyder. Sounds like the higher ups wanted him gone after BvS but there were people fighting for him to stay (presumably Berg and Johns).

One of Snyder's defenders was apparently Christopher Nolan himself, which was why the higher ups relented out of respect. I dunno, I don't blame the execs here. It would have been better to professionally part ways with Snyder before hand instead of butchering his movies. Snyder is supposed to be a great guy personally which was why he had such staunch support but this was one of the times people should have separated the professional from the personal.

Also, I'm not sure if Johns was one of Snyder's defenders. Didn't he say in an interview a few months back that he wanted Man of Steel to have a lighter tone but his suggestions were vetoed? Some Snyder fans were up in arms about him "throwing Zack under the bus" like that.

Since DC films may get absorbed into WB’s regular film division I’m super worried that they’ll go back to putting people in charge of DC superhero flicks that know nothing about the source material. Then we end up with movies like Catwoman and Batman & Robin. Just reminds me of Kevin Smith’s retelling of his experience with the Jon Peters, producer of the abandoned Superman Lives. He demanded that Superman fight a giant spider and that Brainiac have a stereotypical gay sidekick. Oy.

That was ages ago and most of the people working at the studio then have already been let go.

It doesn’t sound like WB has learned anything. Martin Campbell, director of Green Lantern, stated that making that film was a nightmare because it was “directed by committee.” So many WB executives wanting to make changes and add their own ideas.
Jimmy Palmiotti once said he hates working in Hollywood because there are so many studio suits who need to justify their jobs. They all try to make suggestions to show that their jobs are important.

That was some time back too and some people in charge back then have been released too. The fact remains that WB gives creative freedom to directors and writers when they are confident in their vision (the Nolan Bat trilogy and Wonder Woman). Also let's not forget that WB is not exclusively in the business of making DC films. All of their theatrical releases in 2017 were perfectly fine except for two (Guy Ritchie's King Arthur movie and Justice League). Their Nolan, Rowling, James Wan horror movies, and experimental blockbuster fare like Mad Max: Fury Road have also been some of the best mainstream Hollywood had to offer in recent years. So let's not overreact and paint them as nothing more than a bunch of bumbling micromanagers yet.

[Robotman]

One of Snyder's defenders was apparently Christopher Nolan himself, which was why the higher ups relented out of respect. I dunno, I don't blame the execs here. It would have been better to professionally part ways with Snyder before hand instead of butchering his movies. Snyder is supposed to be a great guy personally which was why he had such staunch support but this was one of the times people should have separated the professional from the personal.

Also, I'm not sure if Johns was one of Snyder's defenders. Didn't he say in an interview a few months back that he wanted Man of Steel to have a lighter tone but his suggestions were vetoed? Some Snyder fans were up in arms about him "throwing Zack under the bus" like that.



That was ages ago and most of the people working at the studio then have already been let go.



That was some time back too and some people in charge back then have been released too. The fact remains that WB gives creative freedom to directors and writers when they are confident in their vision (the Nolan Bat trilogy and Wonder Woman). Also let's not forget that WB is not exclusively in the business of making DC films. All of their theatrical releases in 2017 were perfectly fine except for two (Guy Ritchie's King Arthur movie and Justice League). Their Nolan, Rowling, James Wan horror movies, and experimental blockbuster fare like Mad Max: Fury Road have also been some of the best mainstream Hollywood had to offer in recent years. So let's not overreact and paint them as nothing more than a bunch of bumbling micromanagers yet.

That’s true. WB actually had a great year with some pretty creative films. Justice League’s failure was so glaring that it kind of overshadowed the fact that the studio had a record year for profits. I believe they crossed the $5 billion mark. Here’s hoping that they attach some truly brilliant directors to their other DC films and let them create what they envisioned.

Now that you mention Johns possibly not being behind Snyder I do recall him championing a “lighter more hopeful tone” for the DCEU around the time of Wonder Woman’s release(right around the time DC was doing the same thing with Rebirth). It did seem like a subtle shot at Snyder’s vision. Maybe his demotion is just a result of Berg and others backing Snyder. He personally may not have been a fan of Snyder’s DCEU but he happened to be connected with the people making these decisions. WB is done with allowing DC entertainment to police itself so it’s being brought into the regular film division. I still think that someone like Johns is very necessary to keep them honest and respect the source material.

[Samm]

I think WB has to be disappointed. If JL had performed to expectations, 2017 would have easily crossed 6 billion for them and set their new company record. Maybe 2019 will do that for them. That year has It 2, WW 2, Shazam and likely SS2.

[Confuzzled]

That’s true. WB actually had a great year with some pretty creative films. Justice League’s failure was so glaring that it kind of overshadowed the fact that the studio had a record year for profits. I believe they crossed the $5 billion mark. Here’s hoping that they attach some truly brilliant directors to their other DC films and let them create what they envisioned.

Now that you mention Johns possibly not being behind Snyder I do recall him championing a “lighter more hopeful tone” for the DCEU around the time of Wonder Woman’s release(right around the time DC was doing the same thing with Rebirth). It did seem like a subtle shot at Snyder’s vision. Maybe his demotion is just a result of Berg and others backing Snyder. He personally may not have been a fan of Snyder’s DCEU but he happened to be connected with the people making these decisions. WB is done with allowing DC entertainment to police itself so it’s being brought into the regular film division. I still think that someone like Johns is very necessary to keep them honest and respect the source material.

He's still serving in the advisor position. I've always had my doubts about him playing a Kevin Feige-esque role for DCEU though. I mean, there definitely were worse choices than him but I didn't know if he had Feige's winning mixture of business acumen, creative instinct and crisp vision which propelled the MCU characters and movies further.

I don't know, I think Feige is one of a kind so I don't even know if they need a Feige. Ultimately their revised plan to make the films more "director driven" and just loosely connect the films together seemed like the better approach for DC's films. But for that to work, they need to properly gauge and realize which directors and writers are the right fit for the character or project at hand. Zack Snyder, despite being incredibly hard-working, pleasant to work with and devoted to the characters, unfortunately did not have a vision that aligned with what most people had in mind. I also think they need to stop rehiring mediocre writers like David Goyer, whose only good work is when he is collaborating with far better creators like the Nolan brothers.

[Johnny]

Johns never had a Feige-type role, for all intents and purposes he was a PR puppet with producer credit. To my knowledge the aspects Johns was more hands-on involved in was helping with the WW script, co-writing The Batman script with Affleck before the latter stepped down, co-writing the WW2 script with Jenkins now and helping bring in Whedon for the JL reshoots that Tsujihara demanded after he didn't like Zack Snyder's original cut. Also, Johns never stopped being the CCO, he was just going to focus more on the movies as opposed to the comics, that's why he wasn't going to answer to Diane Nelson anymore. Going forward, I doubt Johns' role would change that much, whether he's getting a producer credit or not. The way I see it, he is sort of a "secret weapon"-type in the end-game, he would still be the comics guy helping guide things as far as character structure is concerned when working with a team and throw out the history and landmarks of the characters. But as far as the actual film architecture goes, I doubt he ever had anything to do without politicing the executives. That's why Jon Berg was there in the first place, WB chose one of their own, instead of giving Johns the keys to the city. Frankly, Johns being an advisor is a better option anyway, because comics and movies aren't the same thing. We saw how that turned out with Frank Miller.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

After all the dust has settled and having been through so many emotions re: Justice League and DCEU, I decided recently to pretend there had never been a DCEU, to clear my brain of what had happened, and watch Zack Snyder's MoS and BvS with absolutely NO expectations. And I did so trying VERY hard to just at least appreciate that there were movies out there about Superman and about Batman AND Superman AND Wonder Woman, even if they had really disappointed me at the time.

By doing that, and it was almost like a Zen practice to clear my mind of all prior thoughts on the movies to watch them freshly in hopes of just appreciating they exist, now that we are confronting a world where DC Films are in big trouble and there's no guarantee they'll continue to happen.

And you know what? Superman DID smile in Man of Steel. He smiled a lot during it. I'd completely forgotten because I didn't respond to what I felt was unnecessary and unearned seriousness. Not because I didn't want serious movies: I DO. But because it had felt unearned. Watching it freshly with all the benefit of hindsight I don't even know how to step out of this closet but...

I really liked it.

I'd loathed it but by approaching it with zero expectations and trying to just appreciate what Snyder was trying to do on his terms and not mine, no matter how much I might have felt certain characters were very out of character according to how we've always known them in the comics and all other media. I gave all that up to see how he did at what he was trying to do. I decided to see anew, to confirm or its opposite, that I actually hated these movies and that they were irredeemable, and by doing so I became a convert. Like a total convert. Like a breaking out into a smile the first time bones started poking out of Doomsday convert. And I've always hated Doomsday, in the comics, in animation, just everywhere. I find him a worthless character but I geeked out.

Because after MoS I watched the extended BvS for a third time, trying again, but trying differently, meeting it on its level, and I really surprised myself with how much I enjoyed each of those two movies I've been so upset over and for years.

I hope we get extended Snyder AND extended theatrical/Whedon Justice League whenever they release whatever they're going to release. I want all of it. I'm ready to watch a Justice League that I might otherwise have hated by giving myself over to his vision. Same for Whedon.

I'm very disappointed over the damage done by those three movies but I've learned to appreciate them. It began as a thought experiment but I'm converted.

I stand by my earlier criticisms of both films, ALL of them. But I've also found a way to really appreciate them and I'm glad I made the extra effort.

You and I are in the exact same boat, sir, and I did the exact same thing you did. I shelved my expectations and viewed those movies again for what they were instead of what I wanted them to be and was shocked at how much they grew on me.

They still have undeniable problems, but I either reconciled them through taking a harder look at the narrative or simply didn't let them bother me any more. Heck, I've even started to come around a little bit on Eisenberg's Luthor: not what what he was in BvS but for what he could become spoilers:

based on Justice League's post-credits scene

end of spoilers.

And I agree in that I want as many different cuts of Justice League as possible: theatrical, extended theatrical, Snyder, the whole nine. If they can put out what seemed like a half dozen different cuts of Watchmen, the least they can do is give us two more cuts of Justice League.

[The Darknight Detective]

You and I are in the exact same boat, sir, and I did the exact same thing you did. I shelved my expectations and viewed those movies again for what they were instead of what I wanted them to be and was shocked at how much they grew on me.

IMO, as a comic-book fan, watching a CBM or television show without any expectations is the way to go, since none of them completely adhere to the source material. I just take it for granted it's a different universe and proceed from there.

[Krypto's Fleas]

I don't understand how WB can think Suicide Squad 2 is a good idea. The first one was terrible, and like BvS, it made close to $800 worldwide but people walked out disappointed. So just like JL, people will be associating SS2 with its flawed predecessor. And unlike JL, another Suicide Squad movie does very, very little for solidifying the rocky foundation of the DCEU. There will be no Katana, Captain Boomerang or even Deadshot spinoffs from this---nor should there be. WB should scratch SS2 from the list, replace it with a Superman solo film and not call it MOS 2 but rather just Superman.

[maxmcco]

I don't understand how WB can think Suicide Squad 2 is a good idea. The first one was terrible, and like BvS, it made close to $800 worldwide but people walked out disappointed. So just like JL, people will be associating SS2 with its flawed predecessor. And unlike JL, another Suicide Squad movie does very, very little for solidifying the rocky foundation of the DCEU. There will be no Katana, Captain Boomerang or even Deadshot spinoffs from this---nor should there be. WB should scratch SS2 from the list, replace it with a Superman solo film and not call it MOS 2 but rather just Superman.

100% agree. SS2 needs to be scrapped.That franchise has no goodwill built up from the first one and will likely perform similarly to Justice League. They can't afford another failure. They need to disassociate Margot Robbie's Harley from Suicide Squad if they want to capitalize on her popularity. Similarly, I really hope the Wonder Woman IP hasn't been tarnished too badly by JL.

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

I don't understand how WB can think Suicide Squad 2 is a good idea. The first one was terrible, and like BvS, it made close to $800 worldwide but people walked out disappointed. So just like JL, people will be associating SS2 with its flawed predecessor. And unlike JL, another Suicide Squad movie does very, very little for solidifying the rocky foundation of the DCEU. There will be no Katana, Captain Boomerang or even Deadshot spinoffs from this---nor should there be. WB should scratch SS2 from the list, replace it with a Superman solo film and not call it MOS 2 but rather just Superman.

I agree wholeheartedly, though I never got around to watching Suicide Squad, so I can't argue as to its quality (or lack thereof). But WB should scrap it and put a new Superman movie into production.

If there was one thing Justice League was given positive marks for ... it would be Wonder Woman. But if there were two things it got positive marks for, it would be Wonder Woman and Superman. This Superman has now been accepted by the mass audience, so why not use him? It makes no sense to me why they don't.

[Buried Alien]

IMO, as a comic-book fan, watching a CBM or television show without any expectations is the way to go, since none of them completely adhere to the source material. I just take it for granted it's a different universe and proceed from there.

The 1966 BATMAN TV series might have been the closest an adaptation has captured the spirit of the comic books, but that's only because the comics themselves at the times were purposely modeled on the show.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Osiris-Rex]

I agree wholeheartedly, though I never got around to watching Suicide Squad, so I can't argue as to its quality (or lack thereof). But WB should scrap it and put a new Superman movie into production.

If there was one thing Justice League was given positive marks for ... it would be Wonder Woman. But if there were two things it got positive marks for, it would be Wonder Woman and Superman. This Superman has now been accepted by the mass audience, so why not use him? It makes no sense to me why they don't.

Man of Steel did worse than Suicide Squad at the box office. And Suicide Squad didn't even have China. If Suicide Squad 2 can get China it should do well. Meanwhile Superman did nothing for Justice League
so I can't see why WB would want to scrap SS2 in favor of a MoS2. Especially in that SS2 will have a different director and writer but still have fan favorites Harley Quinn and Deadshot in it. Just correct the
places that SS went wrong and keep what it did right.