DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[Agent Z]

Edited post. Never mind

[Killercroc357]

Goyer not directing Green Lantern.

[Vanguard-01]

Goyer not directing Green Lantern.

Well thank Heaven for small favors!

[Atlanta96]

Goyer not directing Green Lantern.

Now if only they could progress to "Not happy with Goyer writing for us at all".

[Killercroc357]

Well thank Heaven for small favors!

They need someone that can go big. Make it a massive space adventure. Heck, throw Lobo in with his Space Porpoises and go all-out. Gimme now!!

[The Kid]

Goyer honestly shouldn't write at all. The script was the worst part of Man of Steel and I don't even give him much credit for TDKT because the Nolan bros pretty much just rewrote his drafts from scratch.

[FlashEarthOne]

Well thank Heaven for small favors!

I actually wish the he wasn't writing for the DCEU anymore at all.

[Vanguard-01]

I actually wish the he wasn't writing for the DCEU anymore at all.

I know. That's why I said "small favors." A "big favor" would be getting rid of him altogether.

Still? Writing is definitely the area where he can do the least harm. A good director can salvage a bad script, and there's always the option for re-writes and other creative interventions.

[Confuzzled]

That part of the movie sees its natural conclusion by delivering a message that is as powerful in its simplicity as it's unambiguous: there's no escape. At the end of the day, I tend to think that Marston's greatest sin was that he at his core a man of his times and therefore wasn't impervious to seeing seclusion (someone would say "segregation") as something that didn't work against positive change and in fact could even help it.

That's the reason the main heroine of the story isn't Hippolyta or the other Amazons but Diana who attempted to bridge the gap between Paradise Island and Man's World. But for supporting characters, Marston's Amazons had a pretty understandable philosophy (staying with the Fury Road parallels, think of them as the Vuvalini if they had somehow managed to preserve the Green Place).

Azzarello's perspective was the one that was much more cynical and simplistic.

[batnbreakfast]

Goyer honestly shouldn't write at all. The script was the worst part of Man of Steel and I don't even give him much credit for TDKT because the Nolan bros pretty much just rewrote his drafts from scratch.

You never know who wrote what exactly (I'd like them come out with it *cough*Prometheus*cough*) but if Goyer is involved I want the line "Some mothers always want to ice-skate uphill" in the movie.

[Powertool]

That's the reason the main heroine of the story isn't Hippolyta or the other Amazons but Diana who attempted to bridge the gap between Paradise Island and Man's World. But for supporting characters, Marston's Amazons had a pretty understandable philosophy (staying with the Fury Road parallels, think of them as the Vuvalini if they had somehow managed to preserve the Green Place).

"Bridging the gap"? You mean "silly Y-chromosome-bearers of Man's World, look at how everything would be hunky-dory if superpowered women were on top", right? And since Marston's sexuality worked exactly that way, I think that's precisely the message he wanted to convey. And Golden Age Diana was the incarnation of the Amazons' ideals tout-court, so it didn't really matter if the star was Hippolyta or Diana -- the message coming out of their mouth would have been the same regardless.

Azzarello's perspective was the one that was much more cynical and simplistic.

Cynical? That's a pretty poor word to describe what in many ways is the most lucid analisys of the limits of modern feminism, emboldened by the success of past battles and taking into account only the faultlines which emerged from those struggles of old. That perennial "we're right, no matter what" attitude that has had heavy repercussions on the movement's logic process when it comes to choosing its battles or being self-critical.

And simplistic... please explain me why all the times that Paradise Island has been treated as Diana's perfect little shelter where she doesn't have to worry about anything that can't be dealt with with a well-timed lasso throw and a boomerang tiara and she's forever a princess with no real responsibility (a combined total of decades and decades of editorial life, therefore) don't count as simplistic but if an author dares to show that life on Themiscyra has its ups and downs (hey, not unlike livin!), that one does.

[Agent Z]

Themyscira hadn't been portrayed as devoid of problems since the Perez reboot.

[Confuzzled]

"Bridging the gap"? You mean "silly Y-chromosome-bearers of Man's World, look at how everything would be hunky-dory if superpowered women were on top", right? And since Marston's sexuality worked exactly that way, I think that's precisely the message he wanted to convey. And Golden Age Diana was the incarnation of the Amazons' ideals tout-court, so it didn't really matter if the star was Hippolyta or Diana -- the message coming out of their mouth would have been the same regardless.

Well, it's not like that hypothetical situation has ever come to pass except in the nightmare fantasies of misogynists so there is no actual telling how factually accurate or inaccurate that belief really is without any real life basis (and I am talking about a state run almost entirely by women as opposed to just a single queen or female leader operating through a patriarchal structure and surrounded by men). Diana bothered to help out Man's World despite having the option of complete security and luxury. That would be enough.

Cynical? That's a pretty poor word to describe what in many ways is the most lucid analisys of the limits of modern feminism, emboldened by the success of past battles and taking into account only the faultlines which emerged from those struggles of old. That perennial "we're right, no matter what" attitude that has had heavy repercussions on the movement's logic process when it comes to choosing its battles or being self-critical.

Sigh. "Modern" feminism is still the biggest reason women the world over can get the opportunities they deserve. In a post-feminist world, a rejection of feminism = failed, unstable nations.

And simplistic... please explain me why all the times that Paradise Island has been treated as Diana's perfect little shelter where she doesn't have to worry about anything that can't be dealt with with a well-timed lasso throw and a boomerang tiara and she's forever a princess with no real responsibility (a combined total of decades and decades of editorial life, therefore) don't count as simplistic but if an author dares to show that life on Themiscyra has its ups and downs (hey, not unlike livin!), that one does.

Er, she literally was an ambassador of peace and love. Her superheroism was defined by her responsibility. And it's a fantasy story meant to illustrate the incredible possibilities for young women, so Diana's victories can afford to be "positively simplistic", especially in those earlier decades where there was a long way to go for women's rights. There are still ways to go, which is why it is silly to simplify the Amazons in the opposite (negative) direction.

[SiegePerilous02]

Themyscira hadn't been portrayed as devoid of problems since the Perez reboot.

Indeed. The two tribes went to war with each other, and neither side was completely wrong in their view points. Perfect societies (and perfect rulers, which Hippolyta most definitely was not in that situation) don't do that.

The Amazons being a perfect utopia that was super mean towards men and not called out for it is some bullshit myth that sprung up in defense of Azzarello's interpretation.

[Vanguard-01]

Indeed. The two tribes went to war with each other, and neither side was completely wrong in their view points. Perfect societies (and perfect rulers, which Hippolyta most definitely was not in that situation) don't do that.

The Amazons being a perfect utopia that was super mean towards men and not called out for it is some bullshit myth that sprung up in defense of Azzarello's interpretation.

Absolutely.

Before Azz's run, the only people who tried to claim that Diana and the Amazons were "perfect" were people who admittedly never read much (if anything) about them themselves.

Once Azz's run got started and the fan wars began, suddenly, the "perfect" attack became pretty much the favored weapon of the Azz fans. To the point where they continue to use it, no matter HOW many times we point out the NUMEROUS flaws the Amazons had prior to the New 52.