DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[The Darknight Detective]

Only in the modern comic book definition of "hero." For most of human history, most "heroes" We're also cynical and not up to the modern definition of "hero."

That's true. They usually weren't paragons of virtue, unless targeted strictly to children.

[The Darknight Detective]

It is kind of weird to see how much of a 180 he's made on Superman though.

It's like, I know that's what they were trying to go for with the ending of BvS, but this just doesn't really feel like a natural development from what we saw of them in that movie.

I didn't have a problem with that myself, Frontier, but I can understand where you're coming from there. It still wouldn't make Bruce culpable or a hypocrite, IMO.

[Ascended]

I'm not seeing Batman as being responsible for Supe's "death" or find him to be a hypocrite, FWIW.

I dont think he's a "hypocrite" so much as he had a major change in opinion that highlights how f**king stupid he had been acting, how far off his own path he had fallen, and how easily manipulated he had become.

I do however, hold him partially accountable for Clark's death.

If Bruce hadn't been such a twat, when Superman showed up and was all "Bro, I know we dont see eye to eye but I need a hand saving innocent lives!" Bruce could've helped Clark deal with Lex and save Martha, nice and quick and clean. And maybe they could've even stopped Doomsday from emerging from the Kryptonian ship at all.

Instead, Bruce exhausts Clark with kryptonite poisoning. Wouldn't surprise me if that was still slowing Clark down a bit when they were fighting Doomsday. Had Clark been fresh and rested, he might have been able to subdue the monster (or throw him into the sun or whatever) without having to resort to the spear.

Bruce made Superman get into two fights for his life within the span of a half hour. I dont care who you are, that's gonna tire you out. So yes, I do think Batman is partially to blame for Superman's death. Had Batman acted like a gods damn adult, Clark might very well still be alive.

If nothing else, he's still guilty of murder and attempted murder. I'll give him a pass for the thugs and crooks he blew to hell indiscriminately, since I dont hold that sort of thing against other heroes like Captain America, but he's very much guilty of trying to kill someone who hadn't committed a crime and had saved many lives for no reason beyond paranoia and fear.

[mace11]

Well superman has limitless stamina but only in direct sunlight in comics.
Some others in dc and marvel have limitless stamina too for example.
For the dceu he may or may not have it.
It's hard to say.
I may have look it up in the dceu wiki for dceu superman powers.
Anyway in bvs superman was fighting doomsday at night time.

[ekrolo2]

I know with Johns and Elfman involved the wanking would get worse but the clips and synopsis for the movie really do not bode well for this movies quality. It looks trashier by the second and the dick suck of old DC movie glory isn't gonna help.

Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.

[nightbird]

[Frontier]

Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.

Well, Keaton wasn't really the "swashbuckling hero type" either.

I think it fits with this Batman if they're trying to go for a more classic feel for him.

[nightbird]

[Vanguard-01]

Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.

He was like that in BvS. It could easily be argued that he was the swashbuckling type for most of his twenty-year career and only started to turn into the darker hero we saw in BvS after he lost Robin and suffered who-knows-how-many other tragedies and losses. Now? He may be trying to come BACK to being that swashbuckling hero.

[Robotman]

I know with Johns and Elfman involved the wanking would get worse but the clips and synopsis for the movie really do not bode well for this movies quality. It looks trashier by the second and the dick suck of old DC movie glory isn't gonna help.

Batman's old theme being re-used is a perfect example: this guy isn't a swashbuckling hero type, he's the guy who rips out a kitchen sink and knocks most of your teeth out in gory detail.

Keaton’s Batman killed just as many or more people than Batfleck. He blew up a factory full of scientist and henchmen and strapped a bomb to the circus strongman. His theme, like the character, was pretty damn dark.

I’m fine with them using the classic themes. It represents a culmination of of all the DC films and the fact that we are finally getting to see a Justice League movie. This movie should be a celebration of DC superheroes, so let’s bring back some nastalgia. They have no plans to do Justice League part 2 at this time and are going to focus on solo films. Let’s enjoy this team up and remember just how long we’ve had to wait for it to finally happen.

And at the end of the day those classic themes are going to get the average viewers excited. Yeah it’s kinda like the Member Berries routine from South Park, but Star Wars has shown us that people love pop culture nastalgia.

[Pinsir]

I just discovered my mother booked the 17th off as she was watching a compilation of every single Justice League clip. I think she may be obsessed...

[Soubhagya]

It is kind of weird to see how much of a 180 he's made on Superman though.

It's like, I know that's what they were trying to go for with the ending of BvS, but this just doesn't really feel like a natural development from what we saw of them in that movie.

There should have been a line something like this: I was wrong. When he implored to save Martha i understood that he has a mother too. He was not some alien monster but someone like me. I would have been the monster here to separate a mother and her son.

So it is clumsy though the intent is good. Batman was saved by Superman. He realized the error of his ways. This is what is meant to be understood. But it does not work.

[ekrolo2]

Keaton’s Batman killed just as many or more people than Batfleck. He blew up a factory full of scientist and henchmen and strapped a bomb to the circus strongman. His theme, like the character, was pretty damn dark.

I’m fine with them using the classic themes. It represents a culmination of of all the DC films and the fact that we are finally getting to see a Justice League movie. This movie should be a celebration of DC superheroes, so let’s bring back some nastalgia. They have no plans to do Justice League part 2 at this time and are going to focus on solo films. Let’s enjoy this team up and remember just how long we’ve had to wait for it to finally happen.

And at the end of the day those classic themes are going to get the average viewers excited. Yeah it’s kinda like the Member Berries routine from South Park, but Star Wars has shown us that people love pop culture nastalgia.

Parts of it are dark but a large part of it is clearly for swashbuckling action as many of the action scenes will attest, and that music does not fit this Batman personality wise or even visually.

I'm well aware that the current entertainment industry can't fuck off with its obnoxious nostalgia boner, I dislike it everywhere it appears, Star Wars included. It's especially annoying since this is supposed to be new versions of Batman and Superman, who had their own musical ques but now don't and probably won't again because that nostalgia boner can't fuck off from Justice League either. To say nothing of how they're forcibly trying to "classic" up both characters to hastily win credit back with people.

Make your new crap be its own thing or just don't do it, spare me the nostalgia pandering.

He was like that in BvS. It could easily be argued that he was the swashbuckling type for most of his twenty-year career and only started to turn into the darker hero we saw in BvS after he lost Robin and suffered who-knows-how-many other tragedies and losses. Now? He may be trying to come BACK to being that swashbuckling hero.

The problem is the transition doesn't feel natural at all, at the end of BvS you can tell things are different in a way that doesn't stick out like a sore thumb but now we've got them trying to pass off Cavill's Supes as Donner and Batman as some swashbuckling hero guy. It doesn't work, it's all so painfully pandering to nostalgia and what people call the "classic" versions it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Frontier]

I enjoy Elfman's Batman theme, so I'm not going to complain about getting to hear it again .

It's like how Justice League Action brought back the B:TAS theme for a few moments.

[BatmanJones]

He was like that in BvS. It could easily be argued that he was the swashbuckling type for most of his twenty-year career and only started to turn into the darker hero we saw in BvS after he lost Robin and suffered who-knows-how-many other tragedies and losses. Now? He may be trying to come BACK to being that swashbuckling hero.

I think it was a HUGE mistake to spoil both the Robin suit with the graffiti on it AND the newspaper article with the words "you let your family die" (or whatever it was) on it in the trailers. Those things were in every trailer.

Imagine how much impact they might have had if seen for the first time in the cinema. By the time we saw the movie every reason for Bruce being a totally different Bruce than we'd ever known had been spoiled which made it a lot more difficult to go on that emotional journey with him.

I might have actually enjoyed BvS if every moment I actually enjoyed (apart from the warehouse fight) hadn't been spoiled by trailers. As it was it felt to me like just a series of moments strung together and not a believably emotional narrative (not for Batman, Superman, Lois, WW, Alfred, Lex, anyone). I wonder how I might have reacted differently if I'd seen the scene of Bruce rushing into the disaster for the first time in the movie theater? And if I'd seen that Robin suit (and learned of his death) and that newspaper article for the first time there.

As it was every potentially mind-blowing moment except that one fight scene (not the titular one) had been in the trailers and no matter how excited I was walking in, to walk out with zero "WTF that was amazing!" moments, and to feel the film was mostly just a matter of gluing memorable moments from the trailers together, completely deflated the incredible enthusiasm I walked in with.

This isn't just another anti-BvS post. I'm genuinely wondering if the trailers hadn't spoiled so many of the most important moments of the film I might have actually enjoyed the thing. I'm trying to allow for the fact that I may have been able to like it under different circumstances.

And maybe too my problem is having always had too high of expectations for these movies. The last one I was completely swept away by was Superman II. I thought there were things about The Dark Knight that made it amazing (and seeing the bank robbery that opened the movie in cinema not in trailers was key to that--my jaw was on the floor and the Nolan movies had so many scenes that had that effect on me) but I still walked away disappointed by the ending, feeling it was too pat. Still to see Heath Ledger play The Joker was beyond my wildest expectations ever. I had never imagined the character could be so freaking compelling. Meanwhile I felt Two-Face (post-accident) was rather shallow in his portrayal.

I actually even walked out of Batman Begins disappointed and it took me several viewings to come to love it and ultimately the whole Nolan trilogy though I've always had complaints with each of these films. Every superhero film I mean. None has felt 100% satisfying to me at the time of watching it and I know that's because my hopes are too high. Even with the Nolan films I had huge complaints about the Batman costume which I'd never liked until BvS (and now I love and wonder why the heck it took them so long to get it right) and I felt the themes running through the trilogy were a little too easy though there were so dang many "WTF I can't believe I'm seeing this in live-action!" moments in the Nolan films and none (for me) in BvS that hadn't been in trailers.

I've come to appreciate Burton's Batman movies for what they were, on their grounds, not mine, because I never liked his feeling for Batman. I never felt he had a feeling for him. My response was my response to most Burton films: incredible ideas and cinematography, zero heart or soul. Which are exactly my issues with Snyder so far too, coincidentally. By the time I could appreciate the Burton films though, having been so let down by them when they came out, they were totally dated. Batman Returns is better to watch now than Batman, which comes off as very cheesy now with Nicholson's Joker too feeling very dated and not at all imaginative to me, particularly next to Ledger's performance which I'd have to say has been the best of any character in any superhero movie.

But even though I do have my hopes set way too high for any filmmaker really to satisfy them, I am always hopelessly optimistic going into them. I always believe whichever one I'm seeing will be the one that I finally love without reservation. And, here I go again, because I completely and totally believe Justice League will be the one that finally does that for me.

Unless/until I'm proven otherwise I will expect to be blown away by this movie and I can't freaking wait to see it. I stopped watching new trailers about a week ago. Now I'm wishing I hadn't seen any of them so the whole thing would be new to me.