DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[TooFlyToFail]

What friendship? And didn't we have the downfall of Iron Man in IM3? Or was that Age of Ultron?

Lol, that's what I've been saying.

The "friendship", and "downfall", in that movie was just as superficial as the effect of Superman's death in the DCEU.

[TooFlyToFail]

As I said, the DCEU got plenty of chances before despite rotten scores simply due to the iconic status of the DC characters. There's no way another franchise would have opened with 3 rotten movies and consistently made near or over 300M. Even the first Transformers movie made below what Man of Steel did.

Marvel couldn't afford to do that. But Feige had a strong and incredibly well-defined vision that worked really well. The DCEU lacks a visionary of that kind. I enjoy Zack Snyder's work unlike most people (though I'm not on the level of petitioning for his cuts either), but did WB execs seriously believe he was the man for the job?

He would, if they had a plan. Also he should've been one of multiple dudes.

I personally think that Zack would work best co-directing with a better storyteller, but one with similar sensibilities to him so there's no clashing.

Affleck, and Villanueve, would work great with him, I feel.

[manofsteel1979]

While I didn't dislike JL as much as this guy, he's not wrong.




To tell the truth, I didn't realize the continuity blunder with Cyborg's origin. It's almost as if Whedon didn't even bother to watch BvS or at least consult the script to get this small bit of dialogue right. Now it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Warner Bros: f$cking up DC superhero films since 1979! At least they're consistent. Although to be fair, the Superman II debacle can't be laid entirely at their feet. That's more on the Salkinds.

[Slowpokeking]

Wow...

Okay. You didn't read Earth 2.

Yeah, ambushed WW and got PWNed by the clone Superman makes him a super villain on level with these big names.

[TooFlyToFail]

Yeah, ambushed WW and got PWNed by the clone Superman makes him a super villain on level with these big names.

His invasion killed the original League. Yeah, he ambushed WW...so? He was cunning, and smart enough, to do what he did.

Also, getting killed by a bloodthirsty Superman, with no inhibitions isn't something to scoff at. Darkseid has been beaten by Superman before, too.

Earth 2 Steppenwolf was a really effective villain, who used strategy to win. That's what Lex, and Brainiac, do, and they've been defeated a Supes plenty of times.

[Carabas]

There are fans who say Darkseid would have helped. But there is an example in Apocalypse from X-Men Apocalypse. Did he work? He is a villain for X-Men just as Darkseid is for Justice League. Did it work?

I don't think that Apocalypse has ever worked for the X-Men, not even in the comics. I see him as basically a video game boss.

Darkseid on the other hand is one of Kirby's better creations.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

They're not ending their connection with him, as he's still under contract. Hes just not doing these DC movies for awhile, if ever again.

Yeah they said his deal has been extended, no idea where this rumour they wanted to fire him came from. JL started production a month after BvS plenty of time to fire someone.

Snyder said he wanted to move onto other projects non DC and after the JL debacle I think that's set. Good for him let's just hope WB leaves him alone in peace.

Let's see WB cut up:
Sucker Punch
Watchmen
BvS
JL

Fan of Snyder or not that's just too ridiculous. Ironically they cut up Sucker Punch to make it "audience friendly" and it flopped... History repeated itself with JL. It's almost as if a meddling studio doesn't learn! Not to mention similar SS shenanigans...

No wonder there has been so many fall outs with directors over the DCEU. I'm not convinced a Matt Reeves Batman film is gonna happen, watch this space.

WB are supposed to be a competent well established studio yet since late 2008 (with the exception of TDKR and WW) they've been screwing with DC and their fans, all started with a shambolic Blu-ray transfer of The Dark Knight.

[TooFlyToFail]

Just watched this scene again:



Man, it still gives me goosebumps. Yes it has the Zimmer greatness (Elfman needs to stick to Burton movies, as he can't do epic, majestic, and mystifying stuff like this in his dreams), but look at the way the world is shot and scope, and weight, that Superman is given.

I can somewhat understand WB wanting to change tone to be lighter, but I think its clear that they forced Zack to change the way he was going to shoot the movie, too. It not only feels more MCU, but looks more MCU. Also, when I say MCU, I mean everything that isn't Iron Man flying, or Ant-Man shrinking, where nearly every scene is shot flatly. Very little depth, both in storytelling, and scope. Even after rewatching the IW trailer multiple times, the only thing impressive is the mo-cap on Thanos. There's nothing special about the way the shoots are captured. The shot of Cap, BP, and friends running looks pretty bad too. However that flat look is the style of the MCU, regardless of director so I'm not gonna blame them.

People will say it's the CGI, but look at the scene above, or the opening scene in MoS. Light years beyond what was done in JL.

In MoS, and BvS, they were shot to look like films. JL was shot to look like a movie, and it saps the team up of anything epic.

I'm looking forward to how they're going to shot their films from now on.

[TooFlyToFail]

I don't think that Apocalypse has ever worked for the X-Men, not even in the comics. I see him as basically a video game boss.

Darkseid on the other hand is one of Kirby's better creations.

He worked for AoA, but besides that you're right. He felt better in the Thor flashback issue, in Remender's UA. Dark Angel also pulled off the Apocalypse act better, too. Tho, that could've been because of Jerome Opeña's pencils...

[TheSupernaut]

Just watched this scene again:



Man, it still gives me goosebumps. Yes it has the Zimmer greatness (Elfman needs to stick to Burton movies, as he can't do epic, majestic, and mystifying stuff like this in his dreams), but look at the way the world is shot and scope, and weight, that Superman is given.

I can somewhat understand WB wanting to change tone to be lighter, but I think its clear that they forced Zack to change the way he was going to shoot the movie, too. It not only feels more MCU, but looks more MCU. Also, when I say MCU, I mean everything that isn't Iron Man flying, or Ant-Man shrinking, where nearly every scene is shot flatly. Very little depth, both in storytelling, and scope. Even after rewatching the IW trailer multiple times, the only thing impressive is the mo-cap on Thanos. There's nothing special about the way the shoots are captured. The shot of Cap, BP, and friends running looks pretty bad too. However that flat look is the style of the MCU, regardless of director so I'm not gonna blame them.

People will say it's the CGI, but look at the scene above, or the opening scene in MoS. Light years beyond what was done in JL.

In MoS, and BvS, they were shot to look like films. JL was shot to look like a movie, and it saps the team up of anything epic.

I'm looking forward to how they're going to shot their films from now on.

Yeah I expected something more akin to Watchmen.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Thus, i say reboot is a good idea. Aquaman is definitely coming. If its a success one can easily keep it in its own universe. I am doubting if they would go ahead with WW 2. They will. But i am not fully confident. Putting so much money shall give results. JL is a disaster. The fact that we are talking about breaking even for JL indicates failure. It should have been the Return of the King of DCEU. Instead it is becoming Matrix Revolutions if we make an analogy. Future films can bomb if they continue like this. That's my humble opinion.

I still don't think a reboot is the right way to go, it would be throwing the baby (wonder woman, majority of the cast) out with the bathwater.

Just make a good aquaman movie, then a good WW sequel, then a good batman movie, and see where we are from there.

[Soubhagya]

I still don't think a reboot is the right way to go, it would be throwing the baby (wonder woman, majority of the cast) out with the bathwater.

Just make a good aquaman movie, then a good WW sequel, then a good batman movie, and see where we are from there.

The fact of the matter is no one wants to make a bad film. Everyone wants to make a film which is good. The studio, the film makers, all the people associated want to make good films. Its not easy to tell whether the final film will be 'good' and accepted as such. Its always a risk. Who knows tomorrow Black Panther turns out to be bad or Avengers IW sucks. Marvel is yet to make a 'bad' film. Average maybe but not bad. This is why every film is almost guaranteed to make money. Marvel is a proven and trusted brand. If its excellent it would make lots of money. If average it still makes enough money.

Starting fresh means they can hope to be free from the overall negative reception. Most of the cast is good. But there are other good actors available. Actors can be replaced. Audiences are comfortable with the idea of reboots. Its still risky. Because they would still try to make good films which they are trying anyway. But they can get rid of the stigma associated with previous failures. People don't just love Iron Man. They love RDJ as Iron Man. Pretty much all Marvel actors are like that. In DC, the only one who has such love is Gal Gadot as WW.

In my opinion she can be replaced. But its not wise to do so. For so many people she is Wonder Woman. Had there been no WW the obvious answer was a reboot. But WW's success complicates things. I would say the way out would be let Gal Gadot star in Wonder Woman films in her own universe.The next film was to be set in the 70s. So, a connection to the wider universe is unnecessary. Aquaman can be done like that. If it fails there's no problem. End it. If it succeeds Aquaman and WW can't be part of the rebooted DCEU till their series are completed.

By replacing actors start the DCEU afresh. Ben Affleck is leaving. I don't think he is going to do Batman anymore. Henry Cavill has one film which can be changed so that he appears in another WB film. I can't positively say that anyone else from JL is getting another film set at DCEU at all. There would be some major rethinking unless they planned for such a situation beforehand.

So, i say keep the baby. Wonder Woman is the only genuine success. Majority of the cast can be replaced without much problems. As i said everyone wants to make a good film. But such a long list of divisive films makes success more difficult. People just give up. You begin with a disadvantage.

[Carabas]

Just make a good aquaman movie, then a good WW sequel, then a good batman movie, and see where we are from there.

I suspect that none of these will be good. WB just can't help themselves with movies they consider important.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yeah I just think WB just needs to, you know, make a few good movies and it can salvage the DCEU. As much as I wish certain things could be rebooted out of the DCEU, I think going that route would basically be admitting defeat. We’ll see how Wan’s Aquaman goes and then go from there. Hopefully WB can get someone good at editing or just not insist on doing the editing themselves.

I would be up for canceling certain projects though. Maybe replace the Cyborg solo with a Titans film and get MM on the JL already. Just a thought.

Oh and for god sakes, fix the CGI. Even Wonder Woman suffered a bit from bad visual effects. It’s WB. They can obviously afford better special effects.

[Clark_Kent]

The fact of the matter is no one wants to make a bad film. Everyone wants to make a film which is good. The studio, the film makers, all the people associated want to make good films. Its not easy to tell whether the final film will be 'good' and accepted as such. Its always a risk. Who knows tomorrow Black Panther turns out to be bad or Avengers IW sucks. Marvel is yet to make a 'bad' film. Average maybe but not bad. This is why every film is almost guaranteed to make money. Marvel is a proven and trusted brand. If its excellent it would make lots of money. If average it still makes enough money.

Starting fresh means they can hope to be free from the overall negative reception. Most of the cast is good. But there are other good actors available. Actors can be replaced. Audiences are comfortable with the idea of reboots. Its still risky. Because they would still try to make good films which they are trying anyway. But they can get rid of the stigma associated with previous failures. People don't just love Iron Man. They love RDJ as Iron Man. Pretty much all Marvel actors are like that. In DC, the only one who has such love is Gal Gadot as WW.

In my opinion she can be replaced. But its not wise to do so. For so many people she is Wonder Woman. Had there been no WW the obvious answer was a reboot. But WW's success complicates things. I would say the way out would be let Gal Gadot star in Wonder Woman films in her own universe.The next film was to be set in the 70s. So, a connection to the wider universe is unnecessary. Aquaman can be done like that. If it fails there's no problem. End it. If it succeeds Aquaman and WW can't be part of the rebooted DCEU till their series are completed.

By replacing actors start the DCEU afresh. Ben Affleck is leaving. I don't think he is going to do Batman anymore. Henry Cavill has one film which can be changed so that he appears in another WB film. I can't positively say that anyone else from JL is getting another film set at DCEU at all. There would be some major rethinking unless they planned for such a situation beforehand.

So, i say keep the baby. Wonder Woman is the only genuine success. Majority of the cast can be replaced without much problems. As i said everyone wants to make a good film. But such a long list of divisive films makes success more difficult. People just give up. You begin with a disadvantage.

I hope they just lick their wounds and keep going. Anyone who’s read my posts knows that I am a massive fan of the DCEU we’ve gotten, and I can see the flaws in it but I just don’t care. My love for these films is greater than my issues.

Setting my love aside, they need to course correct in a way that will win back the audience, without losing their built-in fanbase (hopefully). It’ll be damn tough, and I don’t know if they can do it, but I at least want to see them try. I’m extremely grateful for Gadot as Wonder Woman, because as you alluded to they can’t toss out the universe without tossing her with it. And they won’t do that, so at least some part of the DCEU will move forward, to my delight. If it weren’t for her, I could have totally seen them re-edit Aquaman to completely stand alone. As for the actors, I agree that Affleck is probably done. I wish to Joker he would stay, but...I dunno. I was on the side of believing him at SDCC when he said he was going nowhere, and I dismissed the rumors...but his demeanor inrecent weeks, coupled with JL’s reception, well...he’s the cast member with the most to lose, career wise. He had a career resurgence since ‘Gone Baby Gone’, and his career can’t take too many more hits before he’ll be poison again.

Cavill, I hope, gets one more shot. He’s charismatic as hell, and he just looks like Superman. He deserves another shot, with an actor’s director this time. I know a lot of people said he was wooden in MoS (I didn’t, but many did), but I never heard that complaint when it came to BvS. The complaints revolved around the script for him, but not really about Cavill specifically. And since the reviews that slam JL are still stating that he is a highlight, I really hope he gets 1 more crack at it.