DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[Clark_Kent]

Also: I find it ironic that, for all the hate sent Snyder’s way, for all of the “Snyder ruined these movies!” negativity...the DCEU will continue in large part due to Gal Gadot, an actress cast to play Wonder Woman, by a director named Zack Snyder

I think Snyder got screwed, personally, but it’d delicious that a decision he made will lead to more DCEU projects in the future.

[Slowpokeking]

His invasion killed the original League. Yeah, he ambushed WW...so? He was cunning, and smart enough, to do what he did.

Also, getting killed by a bloodthirsty Superman, with no inhibitions isn't something to scoff at. Darkseid has been beaten by Superman before, too.

Earth 2 Steppenwolf was a really effective villain, who used strategy to win. That's what Lex, and Brainiac, do, and they've been defeated a Supes plenty of times.

Yeah, that's really a big talking about compare to the big names. PWNED by the clone Superman like that was his best showing.

[Soubhagya]

I don't think that Apocalypse has ever worked for the X-Men, not even in the comics. I see him as basically a video game boss.

Darkseid on the other hand is one of Kirby's better creations.

Thankfully an article came up which tells my views more clearly. The first film of Justice League means the villain would have a small time on screen. Darkseid's arrival shall be Earth shattering. Definitely not someone who is beaten in 15 minutes. Which face it is the realistic time frame in a 2 to 2.5 hour film where the focus is in bringing the team together. Darkseid would have been just as underwhelming as Steppenwolf. That is my opinion.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#15caa0f06825

[FlashEarthOne]

Also: I find it ironic that, for all the hate sent Snyder’s way, for all of the “Snyder ruined these movies!” negativity...the DCEU will continue in large part due to Gal Gadot, an actress cast to play Wonder Woman, by a director named Zack Snyder

I think Snyder got screwed, personally, but it’d delicious that a decision he made will lead to more DCEU projects in the future.

I don't think he got screwed. However back when BvS came out I said that Snyder's biggest influence would be that he cast the JL and Luthor. He succeeded with WW and it appears the he may have succeeded with Aquaman and having Wan on board will help. Miller was a direct cast without looking at anyone else, it remains to be seen if Miller can carry his own movie. I personally think he really needs to evolve past his JL performance to do that. He needs a director who can reign him in... maybe make him run like a person who knows how to run. Those were bold decisions. All these other directors/writers have to work with the people who Snyder cast and time will tell if they work. We'll see what happens with the rest. You give credit where is due as well as fault.

[manofsteel1979]

Yeah I just think WB just needs to, you know, make a few good movies and it can salvage the DCEU. As much as I wish certain things could be rebooted out of the DCEU, I think going that route would basically be admitting defeat. We’ll see how Wan’s Aquaman goes and then go from there. Hopefully WB can get someone good at editing or just not insist on doing the editing themselves.

I would be up for canceling certain projects though. Maybe replace the Cyborg solo with a Titans film and get MM on the JL already. Just a thought.

Oh and for god sakes, fix the CGI. Even Wonder Woman suffered a bit from bad visual effects. It’s WB. They can obviously afford better special effects.

Most of this I can agree with. I think it's silly to say, replace Henry Cavill an actor that genuinely loves the character he's been playing and WANTS to continue playing him even with all the controversy surrounding these films and replace him with likely an unknown actor who may only do one movie before deciding​ that he doesn't want to do it anymore after getting a taste of what Cavill ( and before him, Routh)had to endure from the internet. Even most people that seem to intensely dislike these movies like Cavill and like him in the role and want to see him continue. The JL Movie closes the door on the Snyder direction. The basic continuity that's in place is strong enough to build upon.theres no reason to retell everyone's origins again, especially Superman's. Just use the casts Snyder gathered and tell new stories that build up the universe. No need to reboot, Because that doesn't guarantee better movies. Just do a better job going forward.

[FlashEarthOne]

Most of this I can agree with. I think it's silly to say, replace Henry Cavill an actor that genuinely loves the character he's been playing and WANTS to continue playing him even with all the controversy surrounding these films and replace him with likely an unknown actor who may only do one movie before deciding​ that he doesn't want to do it anymore after getting a taste of what Cavill ( and before him, Routh)had to endure from the internet.

I know someone who follows Cavill all around the world blogging and interviewing him on whatever project or charity he is doing. Replacing Cavill would be a huge mistake and likely a financial decision based on how much he wants.

[Soubhagya]

Yeah I just think WB just needs to, you know, make a few good movies and it can salvage the DCEU. As much as I wish certain things could be rebooted out of the DCEU, I think going that route would basically be admitting defeat. We’ll see how Wan’s Aquaman goes and then go from there. Hopefully WB can get someone good at editing or just not insist on doing the editing themselves.

I would be up for canceling certain projects though. Maybe replace the Cyborg solo with a Titans film and get MM on the JL already. Just a thought.

Oh and for god sakes, fix the CGI. Even Wonder Woman suffered a bit from bad visual effects. It’s WB. They can obviously afford better special effects.

Admitting defeat would be either giving up making superhero films or giving up efforts to keep the films interconnected-The DC Extended Universe. At this point both are possible. I won't be surprised if Aquaman is the last superhero film that WB makes. They wanted to focus on DC after Harry Potter was ending. Now they have Fantastic Beasts. They are becoming successful in other films. Why keep trying making superhero films if these are not working. JL can loose money. A film with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman can loose money. What kind of crazy world are we living in! A Justice League film is going to earn less then Suicide Squad. Less then Deadpool. Its shocking.

Aquaman has been shot. So,this is sure. I am not sure about anything else. WW 2 is something i can bet on. But i am not 100 percent sure about it. Who knows they might pull the plug. Aquaman's failure might mean the last nail in the coffin. That's defeat.

There is another defeat. Give up the extended part of DCEU. No more interconnectedness. Just as Deadpool and X-Men. Each films are in separate universes of their own. That would be admitting defeat. If Aquaman succeeds and it is a standalone with no connection to DCEU as a whole, they may forego the DCEU altogether. They would make superhero films. But one can't hope to see Flash interacting with Green Lantern.

If they reboot i see it as 'we have lost the battle but not the war'. Focus on standalone films with only hints to the existence of a wider universe. If they succeed, DCEU is back on track. The train has derailed after JL. If JL can't earn 100 million in opening weekend it is something big. One can't handwaive it and go ahead just as planned.

Cast is the best thing we got from these films. But reboot is a good option to consider.

[TooFlyToFail]

Yeah, that's really a big talking about compare to the big names. PWNED by the clone Superman like that was his best showing.

Okay....

What's up with you?

[Amadeus Arkham]

but did WB execs seriously believe he was the man for the job?

They really didn't at first. They initially wanted Chris Nolan but he wasn't interested in spearheading a cinematic universe much less directing yet another film based on an iconic superhero. It's rather telling that in some of the early marketing for Man Of Steel they included ''from producer Chris Nolan director of The Dark Knight trilogy" since they were still hoping for some of that Dark Knight magic to rub off on Superman and it kind of payed off as MOS was relatively successful(despite the mixed reactions), having made some bank(it was the first successful non-Batman DC superhero film since the Donner movies). Did it do as well as it could've have? No. But it did well enough to keep Snyder involved creatively, and Snyder had already let the genie out of the bottle by proposing that they do the first ever DC crossover film with BvS. In hindsight, they should've gotten rid of Snyder back then but what other director was willing to do this at this pace? A pace that gets them to joining the billion dollar club sooner rather than later?

It's the worst kept secret in Hollywood that Warners always wanted to do a Justice League film and the prospect of doing a crossover film with arguably two of the most iconic superheroes of all time was too tantalizing to just take "the slow and steady wins the race'' mentality by doing solo films to build up to that. After all, Warner's was running out of big IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to end, and The Hobbit were bound to end so in that way I can understand why they stuck with Snyder as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more than any of their directors; especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keep the characters separate from one another. Snyder made sense at the time: he already made the most successful Superman movie ever that despite the middle-of-the-road response it still got an "A" Cinemascore and again was the most successful non-Batman DC superhero film and he was already willingly provided a ideal template to jumpstart the DC cinematic universe.

After all, Warner's was running out of key IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to an end and The Hobbit was ending soon. So in a way I can understand why they kept Snyder onboard as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more than any of their directors, especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keeping the characters separate from one another.

Marvel's story is the tale of the underdog becoming the overdog and DC's tale is the overdog becoming the underdog. Marvel at the very start was at a disadvantage as they only had access to their lower-tier characters that held little pre-existing popularity but they worked towards becoming the juggernaut that they are today while DC always had access to their top-tier characters but they lazied up to the punchline they are now.

[Slowpokeking]

The fact of the matter is no one wants to make a bad film. Everyone wants to make a film which is good. The studio, the film makers, all the people associated want to make good films. Its not easy to tell whether the final film will be 'good' and accepted as such. Its always a risk. Who knows tomorrow Black Panther turns out to be bad or Avengers IW sucks. Marvel is yet to make a 'bad' film. Average maybe but not bad. This is why every film is almost guaranteed to make money. Marvel is a proven and trusted brand. If its excellent it would make lots of money. If average it still makes enough money.

Starting fresh means they can hope to be free from the overall negative reception. Most of the cast is good. But there are other good actors available. Actors can be replaced. Audiences are comfortable with the idea of reboots. Its still risky. Because they would still try to make good films which they are trying anyway. But they can get rid of the stigma associated with previous failures. People don't just love Iron Man. They love RDJ as Iron Man. Pretty much all Marvel actors are like that. In DC, the only one who has such love is Gal Gadot as WW.

In my opinion she can be replaced. But its not wise to do so. For so many people she is Wonder Woman. Had there been no WW the obvious answer was a reboot. But WW's success complicates things. I would say the way out would be let Gal Gadot star in Wonder Woman films in her own universe.The next film was to be set in the 70s. So, a connection to the wider universe is unnecessary. Aquaman can be done like that. If it fails there's no problem. End it. If it succeeds Aquaman and WW can't be part of the rebooted DCEU till their series are completed.

By replacing actors start the DCEU afresh. Ben Affleck is leaving. I don't think he is going to do Batman anymore. Henry Cavill has one film which can be changed so that he appears in another WB film. I can't positively say that anyone else from JL is getting another film set at DCEU at all. There would be some major rethinking unless they planned for such a situation beforehand.

So, i say keep the baby. Wonder Woman is the only genuine success. Majority of the cast can be replaced without much problems. As i said everyone wants to make a good film. But such a long list of divisive films makes success more difficult. People just give up. You begin with a disadvantage.

Most of the cast are very good, replacing them is more risky, no.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay....

What's up with you?

We are talking about the big names like Zod, Doomsday, Brainiac, Mongol and a lot more, Steppenwolf, even with the Earth 2 little showing, was much less famous and powerful among them, his characterization is very generic as well.

[manofsteel1979]

They really didn't. They really wanted Chris Nolan but he wasn't interested in spearheading a cinematic universe much less directing yet another film based on an iconic superhero. It's rather telling that in some of the early marketing for Man Of Steel they included ''from producer Chris Nolan director of The Dark Knight trilogy" since they were still hoping for some of that Dark Knight magic to rub off on Superman and it kind of payed off as MOS was relatively successful(despite the mixed reactions), having made some bank(it was the first successful non-Batman DC superhero film since the Donner movies). Did it do as well as could've have? No. But it did well enough to keep Snyder involved creatively, and Snyder had already let the genie out of the bottle by proposing that they do the first ever DC crossover film with BvS. In hindsight, they should've gotten rid of Snyder back then but what other director was willing to do this at this pace? A pace that gets them to joining the billion dollar club sooner rather than later?

It's the worst kept secret in Hollywood that Warners always wanted to do a Justice League film and the prospect of doing a crossover film with arguably two of the most iconic superheroes of all time was too tantalizing to just take "the slow and steady wins the race'' mentality by doing solo films to build up to that. After all, Warner's was running out of big IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to end, and The Hobbit were bound to end so in that way I can understand why they stuck with Snyder as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more than any of their directors; especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keep the characters separate from one another. Snyder made sense at the time: he already made the most successful Superman movie that despite the middle-of-the-road response it still got an "A" Cinemascore and again was most successful non-Batman DC superhero film so of course they were going to stick with him.

After all, Warner's was running out of key IP's to rely on to rake the big cash as Harry Potter had already come to end and The Hobbit were bound to end so in that way I can understand why they stuck with Snyder as he was more willing to go with their cinematic universe plans more than any of their directors, especially their biggest one--Nolan, who advocated that Warner's keeping the characters separate from one another.


Marvel's story is the tale of the underdog becoming the overdog and DC's tale is the overdog becoming the underdog. Marvel at the very start was at a disadvantage as they only had access to their lower-tier characters but they worked towards becoming the juggernaut that they are today while DC always had access to their top-tier characters but they lazied up to the punchline they are now.

Honestly prior to the Dark Knight trilogy, the last true bonafide Superhero hit they had was Batman 89 and maybe Batman Forever. Before that it was Superman II in 1980. Warner's did a pretty decent job damaging the DC brand before Zack Snyder. They dragged their feet for 20 years and instead of putting effort into cultivating their characters instead of occasionally making just ( generally) bad Superman and Batman movies, they waited until Marvel was already half way to build their universe and thought foolishly they could play catch up with one movie. Laziness and pure hubris.

While there is no doubt the critical drubbing BvS got didn't help matters , the path that led us to a Justice League movie for all intents and purposes flopping started long ago. The article that came out yesterday only highlights that the culture inside Warners that pretty much been in place for too long. It wasn't sunshine and lollipops before evil Snyder raped people's childhoods. I have no doubt had it been literally anyone else at the helm of the DCEU , Justice League still would have turned out a hot mess overall Because Warner's probably still would have micromanaged things to death.

[Slowpokeking]

Zack had his pros and cons, WB didn't use him correctly.

Even Nolan's style doesn't fit something like DCEU. They should have Geoff Johns to oversee the project and hire different directors to do it.

[Amadeus Arkham]

I’m not pushing all the blame on Snyder. There’s precedent for Warners to screw up prior to the Snyder’s but I’m only talking about the faulty way they handled their cinematic universe by entrusting it all to Snyder who for all and intents purposes isn’t much a storyteller and his style doesn’t resonate as much as the MCU approach. And if there was such a culture of micromanaging then why is does the Nolan trilogy exist? Green Lantern I’ll give you.

The article in question doesn’t really show there was a culture of meddling that’s existed prior to the Snyder but it shows Warners became meddlesome after giving Snyder very little meddling on both MOS and especially BvS. If they hired a filmmmaker of Nolan’s caliber or at least good director with good story instincts than we’d be in a very different place right now.

[Slowpokeking]

I’m not pushing all the blame on Snyder. There’s precedent for Warners to screw up prior to the Snyder’s but I’m only talking about the faulty way they handled their cinematic universe by entrusting it all to Snyder who for all and intents purposes isn’t much a storyteller and his style doesn’t resonate as much as the MCU approach. And if there was such a culture of micromanaging then why is does the Nolan trilogy exist? Green Lantern I’ll give you.

The article in question doesn’t really show there was a culture of meddling that’s existed prior to the Snyder but it shows Warners became meddlesome after giving Snyder very little meddling on both MOS and especially BvS. If they hired a filmmmaker of Nolan’s caliber or at least good director with good story instincts than we’d be in a very different place right now.

Snyder was no good storyteller but neither was Goyer, why did they let him write the story? If I'm not wrong Ben Affleck's team also wrote part of BVS.

MoS was quite good overall, better than SR which is why DCEU could make a start. BVS was the big problem here. It wasn't so bad as a movie, but surely a big wrong step on the overall plan."Who started and decided the BVS project" should take the most blame. It's gong to fail from the beginning, even if you have hired Nolan it's not going to be different.

Even with all the wrongsteps, JL could have been less of a problem if the budget didn't go up that high and it doesn't have super high special effect.