DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[Amadeus Arkham]

I’m just sad that Marvel has essentially done what Superman and Orion never could. They’ve killed Darkseid.

The original will be seen as a “copy” or “rip off” of the actual doppelgänger in the eyes of the general public/average movie goer.

My life long dream of seeing Darkseid on the big screen has been crushed.

That's probably the hardest thing about being a DC fan right now. DC been screwing up so badly and been beaten to the punch so many times by Marvel that its become super frustrating and you can't help but get a little jealous of the competition. The days where Nolan's Batman held the box office crown are gone--Marvel has it now and judging from the fact that a movie that had Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman in it together was beaten by a second Spider-Man reboot and, a second movie with a talking racoon and and a walking tree, and last by a third Thor movie ---they're not going to be forfeiting that crown back to DC anytime soon. It's a pathetic situation but that's where we are.

[Jokerz79]

Stop using logic! We all know the only explanation for JL's failure was because BvS all by itself ruined the DC brand and there are no other reasons! I mean, Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman were complete flops too, right? I mean neither of them had legs or made decent profits and as we all know, BvS,SS AND Wonder Woman all flopped horribly on home video and ...

Oh...Wait.... None of that I just said was the case. Huh.


Now, no doubt about it, BvS and it's fallout did affect JL in a negative way,but as you guys pointed out it was really a perfect storm of many factors that all led to JL not doing what Warners had wanted. You can't sugar coat it for sure, but the narrative that some want to push is that the BvS factor is the only reason JL is sputtering is frankly hogwash.

JL was merely an OK film after a great one ( Wonder Woman) that wasn't well served by it's promotional material, released soon after a Thor Movie that many really seem to like ( I thought it was overrated and meh and only marginally better than The Dark World, but apparently I'm the only one that shares that opinion. No one can deny it's made a shit ton of money and was backed up with near orgasmic glowing reviews) and before freaking Star Wars at a time where money is pretty tight and desposable income is being spent on other things.


Plus, the factor that to the general public, JL just seemed like a copy cat Avengers and are either opting to wait until video or skip it all together and wait for the next WW, solo Superman or solo Batman movie.



Fact is, even if JL had by some miracle pulled a billion dollars, many of the same usual suspects here and elsewhere would be telling us it flopped and it should have made 2 billion instead and the conversation would have still inevitably still gone back to PA Kent saying " Maybe" and man of murder blah blah blah, circlejerk ad infinitum.

In other words, Tuesday on the DCEU thread.

It wasn't just some ok film there were serious issues and more coming out everyday and most of the issues go back to the WB.

Suicide Squad made money but was a mess and they even had a trailer house a freaking trailer house make cuts.

The Studio wanted rid of Snyder from almost the start of Justice League but also didn't want to halt production which we now know some of that had it do with protecting their own bonuses.

They had various edits of the film cutting key scenes out.

The film had bad CGI and yes it was bad.

& here's the issue with DCEU Stans the DCEU is in trouble and they act like



Instead of looking at the real issues of the DCEU which is the worse thing one can do is bury their head but no it will be it's the critics and rotten tomatoes, or it's the "Not Muh Superman Crowd's fault" well at least they care enough to actually say there is a problem. Or it's the MCU films aren't that good except they are good not amazing but good they're not technical messes like many of the DCEU which were choppy messes and more importantly they are critical and financial hits while the DCEU since BvS has made less and less with each domestic opening weekend.

Should the DCEU be like the MCU? No it should be it's own thing but it's barely keeping it's head above water and needs to be fixed and soon or it will be dropped because the WB isn't a charity and aren't doing this to break even or make miniscule profits they want the big money and unlike Marvel Studios they have other films not DC related to fall back on and move forward with.

[manofsteel1979]

That's probably the hardest thing about being a DC fan right now. DC's been screwing up so badly and been beaten to the punch so many times by Marvel that its become super frustrating and you can't help but get a little jealous of the competition. The days where Nolan's Batman held the box office crown are gone--Marvel has it now and judging from the fact that a movie that had Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman in it together was beaten by a second Spider-Man reboot and, a second movie with a talking racoon and and a walking tree, and last by a third Thor movie ---they're not going to be forfeiting that crown back to DC anytime soon. It's a pathetic situation but that's where we are.

DC could have had an extended universe of their own 20 years ago, but dicked around for too long and barely could put out any halfway decent Superman or Batman movies until the last decade or so, and expected to catch up in one movie and play the same game. That's pure incompetence honestly.

As much as I liked MOS and the Ultimate Cut of BvS, there was no way they could or should have jumped straight to JL.

The mistake DC made here is instead of trying to beat Marvel at their own game, they should have continued to carve their own niche. Snyder should have been allowed to do his Supes trilogy as he originally intended, with work on a new Batman separately, and WW, then after the Supes trilogy wrapped up and Batman and WW had their first solo movies, THEN do BvS...Then perhaps Flash and Aquaman movies THEN JL with perhaps a version of the Legion of Doom as the villains and a solid reason ( along with maybe the Death of Superman) for Batman and Wonder woman to gather a Justice League. JL then could have been a very different type of team up movie than Avengers. The world greatest heroes vs. their archenemies instead of a yet another pointless alien invasion.

Instead they tried to Marvel it up, and while the results was a fun movie to us geeks, it came off as Avengers left overs to everyone else. And they aren't wrong.

[Confuzzled]

& here's the issue with DCEU Stans the DCEU is in trouble and they act like



Instead of looking at the real issues of the DCEU which is the worse thing one can do is bury their head but no it will be it's the critics and rotten tomatoes, or it's the "Not Muh Superman Crowd's fault" well at least they care enough to actually say there is a problem. Or it's the MCU films aren't that good except they are good not amazing but good they're not technical messes like many of the DCEU which were choppy messes and more importantly they are critical and financial hits while the DCEU since BvS has made less and less with each domestic opening weekend.

Should the DCEU be like the MCU? No it should be it's own thing but it's barely keeping it's head above water and needs to be fixed and soon or it will be dropped because the WB isn't a charity and aren't doing this to break even or make miniscule profits they want the big money and unlike Marvel Studios they have other films not DC related to fall back on and move forward with.

So instead of being positive for the future, whining a lot about the DCEU on online forums will save it? And how were Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman supposed to make more than BvS (first time Batman and Superman appeared in a movie together) on opening weekend anyway? Speaking of domestic, how do you spin Wonder Woman making more than BvS and every non-Avengers MCU film as a disappointment again?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It wasn't just some ok film there were serious issues and more coming out everyday and most of the issues go back to the WB.

Suicide Squad made money but was a mess and they even had a trailer house a freaking trailer house make cuts.

The Studio wanted rid of Snyder from almost the start of Justice League but also didn't want to halt production which we now know some of that had it do with protecting their own bonuses.

They had various edits of the film cutting key scenes out.

The film had bad CGI and yes it was bad.

& here's the issue with DCEU Stans the DCEU is in trouble and they act like



Instead of looking at the real issues of the DCEU which is the worse thing one can do is bury their head but no it will be it's the critics and rotten tomatoes, or it's the "Not Muh Superman Crowd's fault" well at least they care enough to actually say there is a problem. Or it's the MCU films aren't that good except they are good not amazing but good they're not technical messes like many of the DCEU which were choppy messes and more importantly they are critical and financial hits while the DCEU since BvS has made less and less with each domestic opening weekend.

Should the DCEU be like the MCU? No it should be it's own thing but it's barely keeping it's head above water and needs to be fixed and soon or it will be dropped because the WB isn't a charity and aren't doing this to break even or make miniscule profits they want the big money and unlike Marvel Studios they have other films not DC related to fall back on and move forward with.

Pretty much this. I hope they have really thought through and considered their plans for the future. I really, really wish that Geoff Johns and Jon Berg are able to save the day. But people do need to admit that, up until now, the DCEU has been riddled with problem. And unfortunately, I can’t help but think that Snyder’s career might suffer because of this as well. Poor guy.

[Slowpokeking]

Would MoS be more interesting if the leaders of the Kryptonian invasion were not Zod, but Jor El and Lara?

[Jokerz79]

So instead of being positive for the future, whining a lot about the DCEU on online forums will save it? And how were Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman supposed to make more than BvS (first time Batman and Superman appeared in a movie together) on opening weekend anyway? Speaking of domestic, how do you spin Wonder Woman making more than BvS and every non-Avengers MCU film as a disappointment again?

The interesting part is you cut off the actual part of my quote which listed the real issues the DCEU has and as long as people want to find scapegoats and not address them the DCEU will either be dropped or rebooted and that in itself is an issue.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Would MoS be more interesting if the leaders of the Kryptonian invasion were not Zod, but Jor El and Lara?

No, definitely not. I don’t think anybody really had an issue with Zod himself. In fact, I thought Michael Shannon was a great Zod. But I think people were more frustrated as to how the final fight between him and Superman went down.

[Amadeus Arkham]

The mistake DC made here is instead of trying to beat Marvel at their own game, they should have continued to carve their own niche. Snyder should have been allowed to do his Supes trilogy as he originally intended,

Nope. That wouldn't have worked either. The mistake was always keeping Snyder on as director after MOS and allowing him to be the main architect of the universe; creating movies that polarized audiences and critics alike. I'd argue that Warner's approach of going the opposite Marvel route and eschewing solo movies in favor team-ups was a smart move as there's little need for solo Batman and Superman movies prior to Justice League as those characters, unlike most Marvel characters sans Spider-Man, are already well-known to the masses. Marvel's approach worked because it was the only approach that could work since they were stuck with mostly B-list characters that weren't all that known so doing solo movies prior to Avengers was necessary in order to foster interest in those characters.

Look, if BvS was better made, let's say if great director who knew who to tell a story that made over a billion dollars?

If Snyder had been had supposedly been left to do his Superman trilogy it wouldn't make a lick of difference at all if all three of those movies were as polarizing, if not disdained as BvS was and continues to be. Warners approach was fine, the creatives involved(Snyder, Goyer,) were not and needed to go sooner.

[Slowpokeking]

No, definitely not. I don’t think anybody really had an issue with Zod himself. In fact, I thought Michael Shannon was a great Zod. But I think people were more frustrated as to how the final fight between him and Superman went down.

Zod was great, I just think would it be more interesting if Superman got to face his own parents.

[Clark_Kent]

Zod was great, I just think would it be more interesting if Superman got to face his own parents.

Why? Unless they were being mind-controlled, they would never hurt their own son so it wouldn't be much of an altercation. And if they are being mind controlled, then they aren't even the villains anyway.

[Confuzzled]

The interesting part is you cut off the actual part of my quote which listed the real issues the DCEU has and as long as people want to find scapegoats and not address them the DCEU will either be dropped or rebooted and that in itself is an issue.

So again, a bunch of random forum posters on random forums will lead to the DCEU being canned or rebooted? I still don't get the logic.

[Soubhagya]

So instead of being positive for the future, whining a lot about the DCEU on online forums will save it? And how were Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman supposed to make more than BvS (first time Batman and Superman appeared in a movie together) on opening weekend anyway? Speaking of domestic, how do you spin Wonder Woman making more than BvS and every non-Avengers MCU film as a disappointment again?

Alright. Let me put it this way. I see the opening weekend numbers as indicating interest. After that the quality of the film is what does it.

WW was a solo film. 103 million opening is pretty good. Had BvS and SS been better, it would have earned more in opening. MoS got 116 million three years ago. The first film of a series.

After people watched the film, it was loved by them. Its Cinemascore is A. Better then MoS and as good as Winter Soldier. It was a crowd pleaser. It was especially loved because women and girls got a superhero film of their own. And people just kept coming back. When you enjoy the film, it gets excellent word of mouth. They recommend it to families, friends. Tell them to go and they try to catch it again and again. Thus, WW did excellently inspite of competition. Its a really good film enjoyable by everyone. Fans, critics, and people in general.

SS opened to 133 million. Till then the only film seen as terrible by people was BvS (B Cinemascore and poor legs). It had a fantastic marketing campaign. You had Joker, Batman, Will Smith and ads were all pointing to a brilliant film with a new idea. It did not have as good legs as WW. Neither was it poor as BvS. It was just as good as MoS as far as legs are concerned with far too less competition. SS was the last big film of the summer. Its financial performance is good. But its not excellent regardless of the final numbers.

(MoS had 291/116 = 2.5X. A- Cinemascore).

(Suicide Squad had 325/133X = 2.44, B+ Cinemascore).

This weekend multiplier (Lifetime Gross/ Opening Weekend Gross) is really important. It shows how much was it liked by the people in general and it indicates an interest to see a sequel.

I am simply pointing numbers and data. Everything points that DCEU is sinking. A JL film shall talk about whether it shall earn 2 billion or not. Not about breaking even. A film with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman shall not earn less then the first Guardians of The Galaxy in the opening weekend. I love the DCEU. But there is no way to give a positive spin to the available information. Its a bitter pill to swallow.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Zod was great, I just think would it be more interesting if Superman got to face his own parents.

I think if they had turned Jor El and Lara into villains when in most iterations, they’ve always been benevolent people, then the audience would've been justifiably outraged.

[manofsteel1979]

The interesting part is you cut off the actual part of my quote which listed the real issues the DCEU has and as long as people want to find scapegoats and not address them the DCEU will either be dropped or rebooted and that in itself is an issue.

It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim?

If BvS was box office and franchise poison , then SS should have outright flopped and WW should have merely done what the studio anticipated if not underperformed.

Maybe there are other factors at work with JL failing besides BvS? All I'm saying is that yes, BvS is a factor here, but there are so many others at work here, including out of control budgets, no commitment towards a direction once set, rushing out a movie that wasn't finished in a competitive slot instead of taking their time and delivering a finished product for the sake of executive bonuses. Many others as well.

It's not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial and slightly underperforming to where we are with JL.