DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[manofsteel1979]

I think if they had turned Jor El and Lara into villains when in most iterations, they’ve always been benevolent people, then the audience would've been justifiably outraged.

Agreed. If you think having Supes kill Zod was sacrilege, having an alive Jor and Lara be Villains would have been Jason White levels of franchise poisoning.

What I would have liked if maybe Faora or Jax-Ur be the main antagonist of MOS,and save Zod and his army and the Black Zero stuff for an MOS 3 or Even as the main opponents of Justice League.

[Slowpokeking]

Why? Unless they were being mind-controlled, they would never hurt their own son so it wouldn't be much of an altercation. And if they are being mind controlled, then they aren't even the villains anyway.

But they would want to let Krypton reborn rather than go extinct, so it's going to be a lot of struggle.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It's interesting how you dodged his question. If BvS by itself did fatal damage to the DCEU brand, then why did WW perform even well beyond what even the studio anticipated? How did Suicide Squad, which most everyone here agrees is the DCEU​'s weakest movie, make huge bank, had decent legs all without China? How come sales of BvS, Suicide Squad and WW on home video were so strong if BvS truly " shit the bed" as many on your side claim?

It's not scapegoating to acknowledge other factors besides just BvS being controversial towards where we are with JL.

It’s not just BvS, it was the steady stream of polarizing or just straight up bad movies. We had three movies in a row that failed to get the critics to give them the thumbs up before Wonder Woman, which itself was aided by the critical praise. So, I think it’s basically just that the audience has gotten to the point where they’re fed up with it and will refuse to see DC movies unless they know FOR CERTAIN that they’re not wasting their money anymore.

[Clark_Kent]

But they would want to let Krypton reborn rather than go extinct, so it's going to be a lot of struggle.

They already prevented the extinction of their species...he's called Kal-El, and they launched him away from the planet's destruction

[Slowpokeking]

They already prevented the extinction of their species...he's called Kal-El, and they launched him away from the planet's destruction

No, Kal El is pretty much human other than his biological feature, that is extinction.

[Soubhagya]

It’s not just BvS, it was the steady stream of polarizing or just straight up bad movies. We had three movies in a row that failed to get the critics to give them the thumbs up before Wonder Woman, which itself was aided by the critical praise. So, I think it’s basically just that the audience has gotten to the point where they’re fed up with it and will refuse to see DC movies unless they know FOR CERTAIN that they’re not wasting their money anymore.

Yes the series of films. I agree with you. Its sad too. I like MoS. I love WW and JL. I kinda like BvS. I love the cast. But its just not working.

[Clark_Kent]

No, Kal El is pretty much human other than his biological feature, that is extinction.

Stopped at "pretty much human" and won't bother to debate it further lol

[Slowpokeking]

Stopped at "pretty much human" and won't bother to debate it further lol

He even said "Krypton had its chance!"

[Ascended]

No, Kal El is pretty much human other than his biological feature, that is extinction.

I think this is a selective understanding of the character.

Just because Cav-El doesn't identify strongly with his Kryptonian heritage doesn't mean he's "pretty much" human (or more accurately, an "earth man"). MoS establishes that from a very young age Clark knew he wasn't really a part of the world. He has human (American) values and he emotes like a human, but that doesn't make him human nor does it mean he fully sees himself as one.

I think that's the angle for this Superman; he's not really Kryptonian in that he doesn't know much about his birthworld and therefore can't connect with it, but he also doesn't connect with humanity. He's something unique, trapped between two cultures he doesn't really feel included with.

[manofsteel1979]

It’s not just BvS, it was the steady stream of polarizing or just straight up bad movies. We had three movies in a row that failed to get the critics to give them the thumbs up before Wonder Woman, which itself was aided by the critical praise. So, I think it’s basically just that the audience has gotten to the point where they’re fed up with it and will refuse to see DC movies unless they know FOR CERTAIN that they’re not wasting their money anymore.

It's a mistake looking at the opening weekends of these movies and attributing a trend unless you hold Marvel's Movies to the Same standards. Not every MCU film opens bigger than the last. Some open larger than others. There was no way a suicide squad film was going to beat the opening weekend of a Batman and Superman movie, and no way a Wonder Woman movie by herself was going to trend above the others. Ultimately, both did huge box office and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Reviews WORSE than BvS didn't hurt the box office legs of SS and may have even out grossed BVS had it had a run in China, and good reviews and good will towards Gal and WW caused it to be the biggest domestic grosser of the DCEU so far.



JL, yes is problematic. It is an indication something is going wrong on some level. no one denies it. However to pin it all on Zack Snyder and Zack Snyder only as the main and in some cases sole reason sited as the rationale why JL is in trouble is gross oversimplification with an agenda. That agenda is to try and " prove" the purely objective opinion MOS and BvS are horrible abomination that no " true" fan of these characters should like or enjoy is somehow fact. It isn't.

With some here and elsewhere it's not about having an honest discussion about what went wrong with the DCEU and JL specifically,but more about being proved right about hating MOS back in 2013, and attempting to condemn anyone who dare not share the same hatred of MOS and BvS as merely Snyder appologists who don't and shouldn't have their opinions taken seriously. And if course many use that opportunity to rant AGAIN about Superman being a cold blooded alien murderer who should smile and wink more. Or that Costner's Pa Kent is an amoral monster and child abuser. Or something.

[Clark_Kent]

It's a mistake looking at the opening weekends of these movies and attributing a trend unless you hold Marvel's Movies to the Same standards. Not every MCU film opens bigger than the last. Some open larger than others. There was no way a suicide squad film was going to beat the opening weekend of a Batman and Superman movie, and no way a Wonder Woman movie by herself was going to trend above the others. Ultimately, both did huge box office and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Reviews WORSE than BvS didn't hurt the box office legs of SS and may have even out grossed BVS had it had a run in China, and good reviews and good will towards Gal and WW caused it to be the biggest domestic grosser of the DCEU so far.



JL, yes is problematic. It is an indication something is going wrong on some level. no one denies it. However to pin it all on Zack Snyder and Zack Snyder only as the main and in some cases sole reason sited as the rationale why JL is in trouble is gross oversimplification with an agenda. That agenda is to try and " prove" the purely objective opinion MOS and BvS are horrible abomination that no " true" fan of these characters should like or enjoy is somehow fact. It isn't.

With some here and elsewhere it's not about having an honest discussion about what went wrong with the DCEU and JL specifically,but more about being proved right about hating MOS back in 2013, and attempting to condemn anyone who dare not share the same hatred of MOS and BvS as merely Snyder appologists who don't and shouldn't have their opinions taken seriously. And if course many use that opportunity to rant AGAIN about Superman being a cold blooded alien murderer who should smile and wink more. Or that Costner's Pa Kent is an amoral monster and child abuser. Or something.

Wonderfully put, and actually you've put in words what I have had in my head for years. In fact, it's the main reason I don't post a lot...you can only be called a "Snyder fanboy" so many times before you're done with the conversation. I dip back into it occasionally, and often regret it lol It's a shame the general response to your post will begin with "No,", or some variation of that.

[Slowpokeking]

I think this is a selective understanding of the character.

Just because Cav-El doesn't identify strongly with his Kryptonian heritage doesn't mean he's "pretty much" human (or more accurately, an "earth man"). MoS establishes that from a very young age Clark knew he wasn't really a part of the world. He has human (American) values and he emotes like a human, but that doesn't make him human nor does it mean he fully sees himself as one.

I think that's the angle for this Superman; he's not really Kryptonian in that he doesn't know much about his birthworld and therefore can't connect with it, but he also doesn't connect with humanity. He's something unique, trapped between two cultures he doesn't really feel included with.

He was raised by human, stand on human's side, influenced very little by Kryptonian culture. Biologically he is Kryptonian but that's all. The Kryptonian civilization and culture is gone.

I fully understand Kal El, but not much on Jor EL. Kryptonians might have flaws but the first thing is to keep the civilization to live on then think about change. Zod and his crew were more understandable.

Ironically, BVS further proved the "we can live together with them" is garbage. Even Superman was feared and hated by so many ppl. Think about REAL Kryptonians.

[Pinsir]

Um, yes you did. Plenty. Superman I and II. Blade. Sam Raimi and Marc Webb Spider-Man. Thomas Jane's Punisher. The X-Men (well Wolverine was pretty popular any way). The Nolan Trilogy. The MCU didn't invent this.

Or you could look at a franchise like Indiana Jones, which has a good main character and supporting cast, but the villains are more caricatures than fleshed out characters.

[manofsteel1979]

Wonderfully put, and actually you've put in words what I have had in my head for years. In fact, it's the main reason I don't post a lot...you can only be called a "Snyder fanboy" so many times before you're done with the conversation. I dip back into it occasionally, and often regret it lol It's a shame the general response to your post will begin with "No,", or some variation of that.

I just think now as it was then that the vitriolic reaction to MOS and by extension BvS was way overblown and overly dramatic and frankly silly.

I don't know if you were here on the old boards , but around the time MOS came out a poster on here who came on here and claimed that MOS tramatized his children and ruined Superman forever and they burned all of their Superman merchandise and threw away all of their comics because of it. It later was proven that he wasnt a dad at all and in fact was forced to admit he was barely 18. In other words, a troll who felt that he had to make up a story to give his own personal hatred more credibility.

There was also a guy who used to type manefesto sized posts about how Snyder and Goyer were evil assholes and bitched about Henry being British, about Any having red hair, called the suit Cavill wore " a lizard skin suit" and posted horrible photoshops to prove how much better Cavill would look in a Lycra spandex costume with trunks, but only proved he was inept at cutting and pasting Henry's head on Chris Reeve's body....And that was BEFORE MOS even opened! Yes it was insane. There were people who hated these films before they came out.

In my mind , if you don't like something, well, no one is making you watch it again. You say to yourself, " well, that sucked. I Hope the next one is better " And move on with your life. If someone liked what I didn't...Well...Good on them. I can find other things I like better and leave them to it. I don't see the point in dedicating time to rant endlessly about things they hate and belittling those that don't hate these same things. Life is too short devoting so much energy to hate and doing your damnedest to make sure everyone agrees with you.

I'm only shocked that four years later, people still can't get past MOS. These discussions somehow always come back to the same repetitive circle jerking of " omg he killed Zod! Omg he didn't smile enough! Omg why couldn't he be more like Reeve! Omg, Kevin Costner said Maybe! GASP! " lather, rinse, repeat.

[Carabas]

I'm only shocked that four years later, people still can't get past MOS. These discussions somehow always come back to the same repetitive circle jerking of " omg he killed Zod! Omg he didn't smile enough! Omg why couldn't he be more like Reeve! Omg, Kevin Costner said Maybe! GASP! " Rinse, lather, repeat.

Those are just two parts of the larger problem with Man Of Steel. It's a grimdark Superman deconstruction (and there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself) that they somehow tried to pass off not just as mainstream but as what they were going to beat one of the most crowd-pleasing film franchises in history with.

It's an overly expensive niche art movie with some decidedly dodgy writing, and they expected it to beat Marvel just because it had Superman in it.

And then they made a sequel that was worse. And after that they still persisted and kept the same creative people for Justice League.

Your big franchise that is going to clean the MCU's lock should not have the same tone as Game Of thrones minus the nudity. That's never going to work.