DC Extended Universe (POST NO SPOILERS HERE!)

[GlennSimpson]

Why are you SO hellbent on squeezing them into the same universe, no matter what? Why cant Arrow simply be allowed to exist in its own version of the DCU ? The DCU is a Multiverse, so why cant Arrow simply be an alternate DCU earth, different from the movies much like Smallville is ?

Are you really willing to swallow every convoluted excuse as to why and how these universes would be the same? Are you really trying to tell me that while Oliver and co. fight in Starling City, there has been an ALIEN INVASION that nearly wiped out all of Metropolis and Oliver and his friends simply "dont talk about it" onscreen? That would be beyond ridiculous. Diggle even recently joked about the concept of aliens because the mere notion of super-powered people was so "out there" for him. It would make absolutely ZERO sense to have Arrow and Man of Steel take place in the same universe, yet alone at the same time.

Also once again, the executives at Warner have already confirmed that the movie and TV versions will be seperate universes so I dont know why we are even still having this ridiculous conversation.

Well, first, why so angry?

Second, as I said in my last post, regardless of whether they SHOULD or WOULD, I think it's wrong for people to say they COULDN'T. Obviously they could if they wanted to.

And if one really wants to get worked up about that comment from Diggle, then yes, the *existing seasons* of Arrow could take place before Man of Steel, but we could come back for the third season (probably the 2nd episode since presumably the first will be resolving some cliffhanger) and Ollie and his group could be gathered around a TV hearing reports about what has "just" happened in Metropolis. It's completely doable.

Now, if you want to shift the conversation over to why I think they SHOULD, I would say because Marvel is experiencing tremendous success with it, thus proving that people like it. It says "hey - do you like this? There's more of it over here." It's awesome when characters team up. The super-hero genre is the only place it really makes sense to do it. Do you know how badly I wanted to see Knight Rider team up with A-Team when I was a kid?

At the end of the day, the human mind wants things to be consistent.

Every excuse you make for why "Arrow" and "Man of Steel" can't exist together, from a setting point of view, could be asked about the comic-book versions, and yet they do just fine.

[Slade Wilson]

Well, first, why so angry?

Because I am getting really annoyed by you acting like a kid, stomping on the ground and always saying "But, but, but"

Having something as huge as what happened in MoS which obviously will change the entire world´s view of things happen in the same world as Arrow but not having the characters talk about it one bit is just ridiculous beyond belief. the comics dont do that. They acknowledge these big things on a line-wide scale. I just dont feel these characters existing in the same universe that saw Kryptonians level the possibly biggest city in the DCU. Sorry, just no.

And for the 3rd time - its already been confirmed that its not the same universe so why do you keep going on and on about it? The higher ups already decided , there is nothing to speculate anymore. Just let it go.

[krazijoe]

I would love a tightly integrated cinematic universe. Makes it less confusing to the casual fans which make up the bulk of the viewers.

[The Darknight Detective]

Let's keep it civil, guys. I don't want to be the big, bad mod around here.

[Slade Wilson]

I would love a tightly integrated cinematic universe. Makes it less confusing to the casual fans which make up the bulk of the viewers.

When it comes to the movies, I absolutely agree. Those should all be part of the same universe. And if they wanna create Tv shows that take place in the same universe I am fine with that too. I just dont want Tv shows which were not created as part of that universe to suddenly be adapted into it. Smallville wasnt a prequel for Superman Returns and also not part of Nolans Batman and there was no problem to be had with that. TV shows that were created to be their own universe should remain that way. Flash was craeted to be a spin-off to Arrow so thats cool. Agents of SHIELD was created to be part of the MCU and Star Wars: Clone Wars and Rebels are created to be part of official canon so thats all great.

You dont build a car and then suddenly decide you want it to be a plane instead.

[GlennSimpson]

Because I am getting really annoyed by you acting like a kid, stomping on the ground and always saying "But, but, but"

Having something as huge as what happened in MoS which obviously will change the entire world´s view of things happen in the same world as Arrow but not having the characters talk about it one bit is just ridiculous beyond belief. the comics dont do that. They acknowledge these big things on a line-wide scale. I just dont feel these characters existing in the same universe that saw Kryptonians level the possibly biggest city in the DCU. Sorry, just no.

And for the 3rd time - its already been confirmed that its not the same universe so why do you keep going on and on about it? The higher ups already decided , there is nothing to speculate anymore. Just let it go.

Why does it matter to you if I say "but but but"? I don't agree with you. I have that right.

Again, things happen in Metropolis (including alien invasions) in the comics all the time, and people in Green Arrow's comic don't talk about it.

I also gave a clear example of how it could work in the TV/movies, in that the events of Man of Steel happen between seasons 2 and 3 of "Arrow".

I keep going on and on about it because you seem to insist that it's something that they COULD NOT do, rather than something they simply CHOOSE NOT to do. That is where we disagree. If you will simply agree that DC could do it if they wanted, they simply have other priorities, then the discussion would be over.

"Charlie's Angels" and "Love Boat" weren't created to connect, but when they decided to do it, they did it, because there was no reason not to:

http://www.poobala.com/charlieandlove.html

For that matter, "Gotham" is not being created to connect to the Batman in the movies, but you seemed to believe that would be fine if it did. So obviously the original intent is not the be-all-end-all of the process.

[krazijoe]

When it comes to the movies, I absolutely agree. Those should all be part of the same universe. And if they wanna create Tv shows that take place in the same universe I am fine with that too. I just dont want Tv shows which were not created as part of that universe to suddenly be adapted into it. Smallville wasnt a prequel for Superman Returns and also not part of Nolans Batman and there was no problem to be had with that. TV shows that were created to be their own universe should remain that way. Flash was craeted to be a spin-off to Arrow so thats cool. Agents of SHIELD was created to be part of the MCU and Star Wars: Clone Wars and Rebels are created to be part of official canon so thats all great.

You dont build a car and then suddenly decide you want it to be a plane instead.

I can see that but all it does is confuse the casual observer. Once Winter Soldier integrated within Agents of Shield it got immensely better and drew my wife more into the show. Now I know it's a spinoff from the movies and is different, but I think you could get Arrow into the DC universe with little effort.

[GlennSimpson]

I can see that but all it does is confuse the casual observer. Once Winter Soldier integrated within Agents of Shield it got immensely better and drew my wife more into the show. Now I know it's a spinoff from the movies and is different, but I think you could get Arrow into the DC universe with little effort.

Absolutely.

My greatest fear is that we're going to end up with a "movie" Flash played by one actor and a "TV" Flash played by another, in close proximity. That would just seem like such a waste to me.

[The Darknight Detective]

Absolutely.

My greatest fear is that we're going to end up with a "movie" Flash played by one actor and a "TV" Flash played by another, in close proximity. That would just seem like such a waste to me.

At this point, though, it's impossible to incorporate the two universes. It's a moot point now.

[Slade Wilson]

Absolutely.

My greatest fear is that we're going to end up with a "movie" Flash played by one actor and a "TV" Flash played by another, in close proximity. That would just seem like such a waste to me.

And that is exactly what is going to happen. And why do you people think that this will "confuse" casual viewers. they are not idiots. When Smallville was on the air, it didnt bother anyone that there were two Kal-Els (Smallville and Superman Returns) at the same time. In their press release Warner said that they wanna give audiences different and even contradicting versions of the same characters across different mediums. Clearly they think more of their audiences capability of differentiating between those than you do.

And the fact that Agents of SHIELD got better once it connected with Winter Soldier is actually a very bad thing. It should not need to rely on a movie to be a great show but be great all on its own. I like AoS and watch every episode but I wouldnt see it as a plus that the show needed the connection to a movie to be better. Actually being so closely tied to the movies is very restrictive for AoS. They cant use certain characters, they cant use certain plotlines and they are not allowed to do that world shaking major stuff that is gamechanging. But thats exactly what a TV series needs to be great. Imagine a series like Arrow not being able to do the really big stuff because thats reserved for the movies. Its a terrible concept for a TV show and prevents it from living up to its full potential. It works for AoS because the show is essentially just a companion piece for the movies.

But generally a TV series needs much more freedom and be able to do all that big and gamechanging stuff on its own. In short, a truly great TV series should not need the connection to a movie to be great. And virtually all of the flaws of Agents of SHIELD come from the fact that the series basically was forced to put itself on the back burner, drag things out and play it down until Winter Soldier came out so they could finally do their stuff. Its a terrible concept and I have seen a LOT of fans complain about it. Tying TV shows to the movies sounds great on paper but comes with a whole bunch of disadvantages and restrictions that keep a show from firing on all cylinders right out the gate - as Agents of SHIELD so clearly has proven.

Connecting Arrow to the movies and using it in the same way as a mere companion piece for the bigger and more lucrative movies would be the worst thing that could happen to Arrow at this point. Thankfully unlike you, Warner realizes that and is doing things differently. Connecting movies with each other is one thing. They dont hinder each other. But a TV show works differently. Of all the TV shows Joss Whedon has created , Agents of SHIELD is by far the least well received one so far. Because that man creates shows and worlds that cant afford to wait for any big movies to let them do their thing so they can cut loose. TV shows like Buffy or Angel would have been a disaster if they had been tied to a movie universe.

Its not as clear cut as you seem to think.

As for Gotham - its a different situation. This show is a prequel by definition and takes place over two decades before the Batman stuff. If Arrow and Flash would take place two decades before the films and Oliver and Barry would never be Green Arrow and Flash on these shows then I wouldnt mind them connecting to the movies as well. Prequel stories such as this are an entirely different beast to me because the premise is completely different.

[GlennSimpson]

At this point, though, it's impossible to incorporate the two universes. It's a moot point now.

Why is it impossible? Just insert "Man of Steel" between Seasons 2 and 3 of Arrow, as I've already mentioned several times and nobody has given any reason that wouldn't work.

[GlennSimpson]

And that is exactly what is going to happen. And why do you people think that this will "confuse" casual viewers. they are not idiots. When Smallville was on the air, it didnt bother anyone that there were two Kal-Els (Smallville and Superman Returns) at the same time. In their press release Warner said that they wanna give audiences different and even contradicting versions of the same characters across different mediums. Clearly they think more of their audiences capability of differentiating between those than you do.

And the fact that Agents of SHIELD got better once it connected with Winter Soldier is actually a very bad thing. It should not need to rely on a movie to be a great show but be great all on its own. I like AoS and watch every episode but I wouldnt see it as a plus that the show needed the connection to a movie to be better. Actually being so closely tied to the movies is very restrictive for AoS. They cant use certain characters, they cant use certain plotlines and they are not allowed to do that world shaking major stuff that is gamechanging. But thats exactly what a TV series needs to be great. Imagine a series like Arrow not being able to do the really big stuff because thats reserved for the movies. Its a terrible concept for a TV show and prevents it from living up to its full potential. It works for AoS because the show is essentially just a companion piece for the movies.

But generally a TV series needs much more freedom and be able to do all that big and gamechanging stuff on its own. In short, a truly great TV series should not need the connection to a movie to be great. And virtually all of the flaws of Agents of SHIELD come from the fact that the series basically was forced to put itself on the back burner, drag things out and play it down until Winter Soldier came out so they could finally do their stuff. Its a terrible concept and I have seen a LOT of fans complain about it. Tying TV shows to the movies sounds great on paper but comes with a whole bunch of disadvantages and restrictions that keep a show from firing on all cylinders right out the gate - as Agents of SHIELD so clearly has proven.

Connecting Arrow to the movies and using it in the same way as a mere companion piece for the bigger and more lucrative movies would be the worst thing that could happen to Arrow at this point. Thankfully unlike you, Warner realizes that and is doing things differently. Connecting movies with each other is one thing. They dont hinder each other. But a TV show works differently. Of all the TV shows Joss Whedon has created , Agents of SHIELD is by far the least well received one so far. Because that man creates shows and worlds that cant afford to wait for any big movies to let them do their thing so they can cut loose. TV shows like Buffy or Angel would have been a disaster if they had been tied to a movie universe.

Its not as clear cut as you seem to think.

As for Gotham - its a different situation. This show is a prequel by definition and takes place over two decades before the Batman stuff. If Arrow and Flash would take place two decades before the films and Oliver and Barry would never be Green Arrow and Flash on these shows then I wouldnt mind them connecting to the movies as well. Prequel stories such as this are an entirely different beast to me because the premise is completely different.

I never said it would confuse people for them to be different. I think it would be a waste of an opportunity to make something better that it otherwise would be. You are putting words in my mouth. I said the human mind prefers things to be consistent. Cognitive dissonance is a real thing. Doesn't mean they can't work it out when it happens.

Personally, I think a show tied to a movie universe needs to show stuff from that movie universe to be worth watching. If I wanted to watch something that wasn't tied like that, there are plenty of other shows to watch. Why not take advantage of the thing that makes you unique? Personally I think the flaws in Agents of SHIELD came from them NOT doing the stuff tied to the movies, which is why people say it has gotten better now.

The thing is, for the most part, a TV show like "Arrow" is going to play around in its own sandbox and only get pulled over to the movies when the movies happen (other than hopefully a few bones thrown from the movies side towards the TV side). In other words, there are plenty of stories for each to tell without stepping on each others' toes, if they wanted to.

If you feel "Gotham" is a different situation that's fine, but then you need to quit saying things like "You dont build a car and then suddenly decide you want it to be a plane instead." - obviously, according to you, in some situations, you can. It sounds like what you mean to say is "Most of the time, you can't combine things that weren't intended to work together" - which I still wouldn't agree with, but at least then it would be consistent with your other statements.

[Slade Wilson]

Why did you make a double post instead of just editing that in your first post? Also you are wasting your time. You will NEVER force your opinion down my throat, no matter how hard you try. if this conversation is only over for you once I agree with you, then you are in for a hell of a surprise cause it aint gonna happen. I will never (as in never ever) agree with you. At this point I dont even give a damn about what you say anymore. You should know when its time to accept that a conversation is not gonna go anywhere and just stop.

So stop or keep talking to yourself but I aint gonna participate in your ego trip no more.

Good day.

[The Darknight Detective]

Why is it impossible? Just insert "Man of Steel" between Seasons 2 and 3 of Arrow, as I've already mentioned several times and nobody has given any reason that wouldn't work.

Don't you think Superman would be helping out now in Starling City if he was part of the Arrowverse?

[Alastor]

Don't you think Superman would be helping out now in Starling City if he was part of the Arrowverse?

He sure would. That guy we saw in Man of Steel on the other hand...
Supes would probably concentrate on the larger Metropolis area and he couldn't stop every crook across the continent at once.