Black Cat Appreciation 2018

[Darthfury78]

I think it was the latter, and the former was the excuse they decided on after the fact. Granted, my theory is that she was just put into a role planned for Silver Sable, but even if that's not the case, I don't think that the "Queenpin" role was designed for Felicia. It's more like the conversation was that they decided what they wanted to do, but couldn't figure out who to do it with. So Felicia was included in the Stunner story to sort of put her in the mix, since her segments really have little else to do with the rest of that two-parter.

The Queenpin role was designed for

[Phantom Roxas]

That isn't what I meant by saying who the Queenpin role was designed for. White Rabbit is just someone who might have fit the role, but she was just a minor villain in the first issue of Volume 3, kind of like how the Sinister Six in the first issue of Superior was just there so SpOck could truly have a chance to show off. However, as the wiki notes, actors had to be hired to work with the White Rabbit, as no one actually wants to work with her. She could have tried to be like Felicia, but you know how Felicia was just seen as a joke when she went to The Bar With No Name, only to impress after Electro's failure? White Rabbit would have needed to have impressed similarly. Her embarrassment in Volume 3 #1 ruled her out, but it could have given her reason to seek revenge. However, if the latter were the case, then why even bother including Felicia in the Stunner story at all? Felicia is evil to show how Otto's possession of Peter's body alienated one of his friends. You wouldn't have that alienation if White Rabbit was the Queenpin. Now, the jumps of logics to actually get that alienation in place is stupid to begin with, so it's not actually a good story that we're getting, but considering how White Rabbit is already such a joke to begin with, it's not like making her the queenpin instead would have made more sense. At least with Felicia, I could see the trajectory coming from the initial plans for Ends of the Earth to what happened in the Stunner story. Literally the only way White Rabbit might have worked would be if Felicia was just absent from the Stunner story, and rather than White Rabbit being treated like the Sinister Six in Superior #1, she would be portrayed like Scorpio is in Volume 4. However, that would be redundant. Why would we care about someone like White Rabbit when she lacks the feelings of betrayal surrounding Felicia's characterization, and Scorpio's Zodiac is a more serious threat than any gang of hers could be? She might as well have joined a Zodiac based on the Chinese Zodiac instead of western astrology, representing the zodiac symbol of the rabbit, but if she was a part of Zodiac, would it be something like she's the leader (And she's just culturally appropriating a Chinese concept), or she's just one member working for someone else, or she somehow pulls of the Queenpin role and acts as a Zodiac member? Except that would just be cheapening to the Queenpin role if she was secondary to Zodiac. Sorry, but your suggestion would not have worked at all.

[Darthfury78]

That isn't what I meant by saying who the Queenpin role was designed for. White Rabbit is just someone who might have fit the role, but she was just a minor villain in the first issue of Volume 3, kind of like how the Sinister Six in the first issue of Superior was just there so SpOck could truly have a chance to show off. However, as the wiki notes, actors had to be hired to work with the White Rabbit, as no one actually wants to work with her. She could have tried to be like Felicia, but you know how Felicia was just seen as a joke when she went to The Bar With No Name, only to impress after Electro's failure? White Rabbit would have needed to have impressed similarly. Her embarrassment in Volume 3 #1 ruled her out, but it could have given her reason to seek revenge. However, if the latter were the case, then why even bother including Felicia in the Stunner story at all? Felicia is evil to show how Otto's possession of Peter's body alienated one of his friends. You wouldn't have that alienation if White Rabbit was the Queenpin. Now, the jumps of logics to actually get that alienation in place is stupid to begin with, so it's not actually a good story that we're getting, but considering how White Rabbit is already such a joke to begin with, it's not like making her the queenpin instead would have made more sense. At least with Felicia, I could see the trajectory coming from the initial plans for Ends of the Earth to what happened in the Stunner story. Literally the only way White Rabbit might have worked would be if Felicia was just absent from the Stunner story, and rather than White Rabbit being treated like the Sinister Six in Superior #1, she would be portrayed like Scorpio is in Volume 4. However, that would be redundant. Why would we care about someone like White Rabbit when she lacks the feelings of betrayal surrounding Felicia's characterization, and Scorpio's Zodiac is a more serious threat than any gang of hers could be? She might as well have joined a Zodiac based on the Chinese Zodiac instead of western astrology, representing the zodiac symbol of the rabbit, but if she was a part of Zodiac, would it be something like she's the leader (And she's just culturally appropriating a Chinese concept), or she's just one member working for someone else, or she somehow pulls of the Queenpin role and acts as a Zodiac member? Except that would just be cheapening to the Queenpin role if she was secondary to Zodiac. Sorry, but your suggestion would not have worked at all.

I have seen a lot of things that might not have worked come to fruition. And the White Rabbit was a joke. The only real Queenpin I could see is Deathstrike or Madam Viper.

[Phantom Roxas]

I have seen a lot of things that might not have worked come to fruition. And the White Rabbit was a joke. The only real Queenpin I could see is Deathstrike or Madam Viper.

And what did you think wouldn't have worked, but were surprised to see them come to fruition? How do they directly indicate that your ideas might work? Because I doubt see Deathstrike or Viper as the Queenpin. That's not a case where it's about a concern for the Queenpin role specifically. Don't throw around their names regardless of the context, because it really doesn't seem like the concern is actually how they work in a particular role. You're homogenizing characters to the point that if someone just made up a completely new character to fulfill the role you have in mind, the end result would not be any different. I doubt you're interested in seeing how Deathstrike would handle the Queenpin role differently from Madam Viper. You're trimming them of whatever makes them unique. You know the idea of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? You're cutting a circle around the square peg so it can fit into that round hole.

[Darthfury78]

And what did you think wouldn't have worked, but were surprised to see them come to fruition? How do they directly indicate that your ideas might work? Because I doubt see Deathstrike or Viper as the Queenpin. That's not a case where it's about a concern for the Queenpin role specifically. Don't throw around their names regardless of the context, because it really doesn't seem like the concern is actually how they work in a particular role. You're homogenizing characters to the point that if someone just made up a completely new character to fulfill the role you have in mind, the end result would not be any different. I doubt you're interested in seeing how Deathstrike would handle the Queenpin role differently from Madam Viper. You're trimming them of whatever makes them unique. You know the idea of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? You're cutting a circle around the square peg so it can fit into that round hole.

Just look at what Dan Slott's doing with ASM. It's no different from what any other professional writer would do, including Bendis. When Bendis made Norman Osborn a Avengers villain, a lot folks thought that was an idea that wouldn't work. Lady Death was originally a Daredevil created character with ties to the criminal underworld before becoming a Wolverine villain, along with Mystique(originally a Ms. Marvel Villain). There are a lot of Female villains who are in limbo who could fit in the Queenpin role. Although, the setup would have to be quite different than it is with The Black Cat. I would love to see The Wraith take over the reigns as Queenpin for a change and allow Greer Grant(Tigra) to become a member of the NYPD CSI Unit.

[Phantom Roxas]

Just look at what Dan Slott's doing with ASM. It's no different from what any other professional writer would do, including Bendis.

That only reinforces my suspicion that your idea wouldn't be any good.

When Bendis made Norman Osborn a Avengers villain, a lot folks thought that was an idea that wouldn't work. Lady Death was originally a Daredevil created character with ties to the criminal underworld before becoming a Wolverine villain, along with Mystique(originally a Ms. Marvel Villain).

And what exactly made those ideas work that would show how your ideas could work?

There are a lot of Female villains who are in limbo who could fit in the Queenpin role. Although, the setup would have to be quite different than it is with The Black Cat. I would love to see The Wraith take over the reigns as Queenpin for a change and allow Greer Grant(Tigra) to become a member of the NYPD CSI Unit.

Um, no, that's not about making the stories work. Greer is just another one of your default picks to throw into anything. Why is that you say there "a lot" of female characters - not just villains, just women in general - yet you always pick either Greer Grant(Human form) (You only specify her as Tigra because you're showing what you want her to get away from, and putting her in the CSI is your pretense for making her human), Jennifer Walters(Human form), Wraith, Mystique, Madame Viper, Lady Deathstrike, and Mystique, and occasionally Carol Danvers and Psylocke. And all nine of those women always come up either as an alternative for someone who can go through whatever Felicia went through that you disagree with because you prefer Felicia(Pre-OMD), or those nine and Felicia must be considered instead of Mary Jane or Gwen Stacy.

You do this in just about every conversation you interfere in. You look at twelve particular women, treat all of them as interchangeable, and when you're challenged on that, you'll suggest a thirteenth woman in an attempt to disguise what you're doing.

[Darthfury78]

That only reinforces my suspicion that your idea wouldn't be any good.



And what exactly made those ideas work that would show how your ideas could work?



Um, no, that's not about making the stories work. Greer is just another one of your default picks to throw into anything. Why is that you say there "a lot" of female characters - not just villains, just women in general - yet you always pick either Greer Grant(Human form) (You only specify her as Tigra because you're showing what you want her to get away from, and putting her in the CSI is your pretense for making her human), Jennifer Walters(Human form), Wraith, Mystique, Madame Viper, Lady Deathstrike, and Mystique, and occasionally Carol Danvers and Psylocke. And all nine of those women always come up either as an alternative for someone who can go through whatever Felicia went through that you disagree with because you prefer Felicia(Pre-OMD), or those nine and Felicia must be considered instead of Mary Jane or Gwen Stacy.

You do this in just about every conversation you interfere in. You look at twelve particular women, treat all of them as interchangeable, and when you're challenged on that, you'll suggest a thirteenth woman in an attempt to disguise what you're doing.

I never said that I would write the story. The human form of the character is what makes them relatable to the readers. That's the heart and soul of every superhero. A day job to help others connects the readers to the story. The challenge is to do things that has not been done before and to make it interesting. Just like global economy and mother nature, as it never stays constant. Whether my ideas will work or not is redundant as I do not work at Marvel Comics. If I did, I could not talk about these characters on a message forum as it would get me into a lot of trouble as Marvel has a policy of not looking at story ideas or talking about them in a public forum.

[Mauled]

Regardless of whether it should be White Rabbit or not, what has happened to Felicia is terrible either way and Slott and Bendis know it, they are just to arrogant to admit they have screwed up.

I still can't believe that when this was being pitched in the writers room, "hey guys iv got a great idea, instead of the King Pin let's make Black Cat the Queen pin" , that person wasn't laughed right out the room. I mean it's so obviously bad, it really shouldn't require a detailed explanation on why it's bad !! But I guess it did

[Phantom Roxas]

I never said that I would write the story. The human form of the character is what makes them relatable to the readers. That's the heart and soul of every superhero. A day job to help others connects the readers to the story. The challenge is to do things that has not been done before and to make it interesting. Just like global economy and mother nature, as it never stays constant. Whether my ideas will work or not is redundant as I do not work at Marvel Comics. If I did, I could not talk about these characters on a message forum as it would get me into a lot of trouble as Marvel has a policy of not looking at story ideas or talking about them in a public forum.

I know you don't work at Marvel, and that you never said you'd write these stories. However, you pitch these stories to give an indication of what you wish someone at Marvel could write, and you always use that phrase to absolve yourself of any accountability for having to admit that the stories you want to see happen probably won't be any good.

A couple writing classes I've taken over the years have really given me insight. Namely, the way in which "relatable" is thrown around here is just wrong. It's used as a catch-all term to justify whatever idea people want, from saying that Peter being single makes him "relatable", to you insisting that Greer and Jennifer must be human. It looks only at particular aspects of characters and suggests things to remove, as if those are obstacles making the character relatable. One of my current teachers has said that "relatable" should really just refer to the ability to tell - relate - a story. Don't you dare talk about the heart and soul of every superhero when you will blatantly disregard half of those hearts and souls and treat Greer and Jennifer like they're Doctor Jekylls trapped as Mister Hydes.

You base writers doing something that hasn't been done before that solely around mixing around characters, as if doing new things with a preexisting story cast dooms a story to being stale, rather than a similar challenge. Except, you're not actually mixing. Stuff like moving characters over to Guardians of the Galaxy doesn't ever come up. It's always that, as soon as one character comes up, you say someone should be added to Spider-Man instead. It's just Spider-Man. It's not "redundant" to say whether or not your ideas will work, because that's just dodging the question. When you just throw around a character unfamiliar to Spider-Man's "world", it's no different from a writer making up a new character. If anything, it's worse, because you're only looking at how to trim a character to make them service Spider-Man, without any care for what's unique to this character. That's why writers make new characters. Why tear apart one character when you can just use someone already in the franchise to begin with, or build someone from the ground up that won't need to be cut for the sake of convenience?

[Darthfury78]

I know you don't work at Marvel, and that you never said you'd write these stories. However, you pitch these stories to give an indication of what you wish someone at Marvel could write, and you always use that phrase to absolve yourself of any accountability for having to admit that the stories you want to see happen probably won't be any good.

A couple writing classes I've taken over the years have really given me insight. Namely, the way in which "relatable" is thrown around here is just wrong. It's used as a catch-all term to justify whatever idea people want, from saying that Peter being single makes him "relatable", to you insisting that Greer and Jennifer must be human. It looks only at particular aspects of characters and suggests things to remove, as if those are obstacles making the character relatable. One of my current teachers has said that "relatable" should really just refer to the ability to tell - relate - a story. Don't you dare talk about the heart and soul of every superhero when you will blatantly disregard half of those hearts and souls and treat Greer and Jennifer like they're Doctor Jekylls trapped as Mister Hydes.

You base writers doing something that hasn't been done before that solely around mixing around characters, as if doing new things with a preexisting story cast dooms a story to being stale, rather than a similar challenge. Except, you're not actually mixing. Stuff like moving characters over to Guardians of the Galaxy doesn't ever come up. It's always that, as soon as one character comes up, you say someone should be added to Spider-Man instead. It's just Spider-Man. It's not "redundant" to say whether or not your ideas will work, because that's just dodging the question. When you just throw around a character unfamiliar to Spider-Man's "world", it's no different from a writer making up a new character. If anything, it's worse, because you're only looking at how to trim a character to make them service Spider-Man, without any care for what's unique to this character. That's why writers make new characters. Why tear apart one character when you can just use someone already in the franchise to begin with, or build someone from the ground up that won't need to be cut for the sake of convenience?

Just look at Slott and Bendis works who adds characters from many parts of the MU and makes them relatable. It not the characters that brings in the readers, but the story and the roles that they play into. And Spider-Man's world is really the Marvel Universe. Ideas gets bounced around and heard before the official story is written.

[Phantom Roxas]

Just look at Slott and Bendis works who adds characters from many parts of the MU and makes them relatable. It not the characters that brings in the readers, but the story and the roles that they play into. And Spider-Man's world is really the Marvel Universe. Ideas gets bounced around and heard before the official story is written.

Again, not a good example. You can't just point to someone and say that it's okay with them, therefore it's okay to suggest your own thing. What exactly about their works makes them such prime examples? What do the stories you want to see need to do in order to be as acceptable as theirs? If the stories and the roles they play into are what brings in the readers, then why should we care which characters you keep circling around? You just want a role filled. All you do with preexisting characters is just have a name you can slap onto whatever role. For all your insistence that Peter specifically should be involved because he's one of Peter's closest friends, why is it that, whenever any other character comes up, what makes them unique really doesn't seem to matter? Spider-Man's "world" isn't the Marvel Universe. We have the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, the X-Men, the Inhumans, the Guardians of the Galaxy, more than just Spider-Man. Ideas may get bounced around and heard before they're written, but you just cut out whatever ideas can't just accommodate Spider-Man himself. If you want to talk about stories getting stale, and the same stories being done over and over, then your constant attempts to homogenize literally everyone into either "femme fatale love interest for Peter" or "male villain who works with evil femme fatale against the good femme fatale love interest for Peter" just renders every single story you could possibly suggest into the same damn thing.

[Agent Z]

So I hear Felicia was actually portrayed well in Silk today. Anyone who's read that, can comment on it?

[Docz]

So I hear Felicia was actually portrayed well in Silk today. Anyone who's read that, can comment on it?

I've heard the same thing so despite not having bought any spider books in some time decided to give this a go. Honestly I didn't know how I'd feel going into the issue, on one hand I really dislike her current status quo but despite that Black Cat is one of my favorite Marvel characters so I've been dying to read anything with her in it for some time. So I wasn't sure if which of my biases were going to be stronger going into the issue. After reading the issue I can say that I actually am ok with how Thompson wrote her in this issue.

We actually got to see Felicia show actual empathy for Cindy when Silk explained how she'd been locked up for over ten years, and after taking out Ulrich and curing the members of the Goblin Nation she had buses ready to take the kids he has infected to shelters. So she was written as someone who is still incredibly ruthless but not a complete off the wall psycho who was willing to harm innocents for no reason and was actually willing to help the kids Goblin Nation has poisoned. So this I particularly liked since most of her time in the current status quo has been more or less her screaming "hooray for evil" so it was a breath of fresh air to see her still able to show some compassion, and Cindy showed it to be back citing concern to Mockingbird about how she used to be a good guy and doesn't seem to believe that she is completely lost. It was nice to see another character actually showing concern for Felicia since one of the things I disliked most about her turn in Amazing is how little Peter seemed to care that one of his oldest friends was acting so ridiculously. I'm happy Thompson seems to realize just because Felicia is currently the antagonist that doesn't mean she has to be completely reprehensible.

Another thing is Thompson wrote her to be actually competent in this issue, she was confident and strong and aside from the aforementioned ruthlessness actually felt like Felicia to me, or at least as close as she has been since her current change began. Without a doubt a humongous step up from the bumbling idiot she was written to be in Amazing 1-6 and Hawkeye vs Deadpool.

All things said, it still is what it is. It's still Felicia's current Queenpin run that a lot of don't particularly want, but what I do want is Felicia Hardy stories and if Thompson can produce more stories like these where she is still allowed to be shown as someone capable of compassion despite looking out for herself first and foremost I think I can get on board with it for the time being. It certainly is not perfect but I'm pretty sure I can safely say that it is the most I've enjoyed her character since the change. I won't say I'm completely sold on the idea, not by a long shot. However, at least for the time being I think Thompson might have one new reader for Silk. If you're a fan of Black Cat I recommend at least giving the issue a try even if it's just thumbing through the pages at your local comic shop.

[Darthfury78]

I've heard the same thing so despite not having bought any spider books in some time decided to give this a go. Honestly I didn't know how I'd feel going into the issue, on one hand I have really disliked her current status quo but despite that Black Cat is one of my favorite Marvel characters so I've been dying to read anything with her in it for some time. So I wasn't sure if which of my biases were going to be stronger going into the issue. After reading the issue I can say that I actually am ok with how Thompson wrote her in this issue.

We actually got to see Felicia show actual empathy for Cindy when Silk explained how she'd been locked up for over ten years, and after taking out Ulrich and curing the members of the Goblin Nation she had buses ready to take the kids he has infected to shelters. So she was written as someone who is still incredibly ruthless but not a complete off the wall psycho who was willing to harm innocents for no reason and was actually willing to help the kids Goblin Nation has poisoned. So this I particularly liked since most of her time in the current status quo has been more or less her screaming "hooray for evil" so it was a breath of fresh air to see her still able to show some compassion, and Cindy showed it to be back citing concern to Mockingbird about how she used to be a good guy and doesn't seem to believe that she is completely lost. It was nice to see another character actually showing concern for Felicia since one of the things I disliked most about her turn in Amazing is how little Peter seemed to care that one of his oldest friends was acting so ridiculously. I'm happy Thompson seems to realize just because Felicia is currently the antagonist that doesn't mean she has to be completely reprehensible.

Another thing is Thompson wrote her to be actually competent in this issue, she was confident and strong and aside from the aforementioned ruthlessness actually felt like Felicia to me, or at least as close as she has been since her current change began. Without a doubt a humongous step up from the bumbling idiot she was written to be in Amazing 1-6 and Hawkeye vs Deadpool.

All things said, it still is what it is. It's still Felicia's current Queenpin run that a lot of don't particularly want, but what I do want is Felicia Hardy stories and if Thompson can produce more stories like these where she is still allowed to be shown as someone capable of compassion despite looking out for herself first and foremost I think I can get on board with it for the time being. It certainly is not perfect but I'm pretty sure I can safely say that it is the most I've enjoyed her character since the change. I won't say I'm completely sold on the idea, not by a long shot. However, at least for the time being I think Thompson might have one new reader for Silk. If you're a fan of Black Cat I recommend at least giving the issue a try even if it's just thumbing through the pages at your local comic shop.

It would be nice to see some of the old Felicia still there. Although I would love to see her show up in Spider-Woman...

[Agent Z]

I've heard the same thing so despite not having bought any spider books in some time decided to give this a go. Honestly I didn't know how I'd feel going into the issue, on one hand I have really dislike her current status quo but despite that Black Cat is one of my favorite Marvel characters so I've been dying to read anything with her in it for some time. So I wasn't sure if which of my biases were going to be stronger going into the issue. After reading the issue I can say that I actually am ok with how Thompson wrote her in this issue.

We actually got to see Felicia show actual empathy for Cindy when Silk explained how she'd been locked up for over ten years, and after taking out Ulrich and curing the members of the Goblin Nation she had buses ready to take the kids he has infected to shelters. So she was written as someone who is still incredibly ruthless but not a complete off the wall psycho who was willing to harm innocents for no reason and was actually willing to help the kids Goblin Nation has poisoned. So this I particularly liked since most of her time in the current status quo has been more or less her screaming "hooray for evil" so it was a breath of fresh air to see her still able to show some compassion, and Cindy showed it to be back citing concern to Mockingbird about how she used to be a good guy and doesn't seem to believe that she is completely lost. It was nice to see another character actually showing concern for Felicia since one of the things I disliked most about her turn in Amazing is how little Peter seemed to care that one of his oldest friends was acting so ridiculously. I'm happy Thompson seems to realize just because Felicia is currently the antagonist that doesn't mean she has to be completely reprehensible.

Another thing is Thompson wrote her to be actually competent in this issue, she was confident and strong and aside from the aforementioned ruthlessness actually felt like Felicia to me, or at least as close as she has been since her current change began. Without a doubt a humongous step up from the bumbling idiot she was written to be in Amazing 1-6 and Hawkeye vs Deadpool.

All things said, it still is what it is. It's still Felicia's current Queenpin run that a lot of don't particularly want, but what I do want is Felicia Hardy stories and if Thompson can produce more stories like these where she is still allowed to be shown as someone capable of compassion despite looking out for herself first and foremost I think I can get on board with it for the time being. It certainly is not perfect but I'm pretty sure I can safely say that it is the most I've enjoyed her character since the change. I won't say I'm completely sold on the idea, not by a long shot. However, at least for the time being I think Thompson might have one new reader for Silk. If you're a fan of Black Cat I recommend at least giving the issue a try even if it's just thumbing through the pages at your local comic shop.

Thanks, for the reply.